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Tiger Moth cabane struts rigging


Hhhalifaxxx

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Hi. I have a question for Tiggie experts. After going through many pictures, I still haven't figured out exactly how the center wing wires (those next to the cabane struts) are actually connected to the fuselage right behind the cowling. I believe both the front and aft pairs of wires are crossed over the fuselage (contrary to the rigging instructions in the AZModel kit, where the aft pair is shown parallel to the fuselage), but the insertion/attachment point on it are still puzzling to me. Could anyone show a clear picture (photo or drawing) of this arrangement? Thank you.

PS.: Is anyone producing a photo-etch set for a 1/72 Tiger Moth? I'd love to apply the one that comes with the AZModels kit to the Airfix version as well.

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I had a go for the first time on this one I just finished. Only managed the rearmost X shaped wires. They seem to attache to the top of the cowling angled from the reamost struts and forward a bit. See link below.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234958680-tiger-moth-de709-aac/

Admittedly Thye buckled abit when I attached the top wing and hence did not try to do the forward ones. But at least I tried.!

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Hm. The 2nd pic down shos one of the wires slightly buckled. So my recent build in Army colours is Ok as they are buckled too! :whistle:

By the way in the latest AMW there is a build of the new Airifx kit and the chap describes the top wing fuel tank as a ....radiator! I think someone should put him right!

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That Tiger Moth was far from in flying condition Paul, it was in the "military museum" in Gweru, Zimbabwe. The whole place was sadly neglected and run down, so were the aircraft in it.

Managed to get mine done but this was a 1/48th Aeroclub, STILL missing the windshields....must get and do those somewhen!

DSCN3610_zps8e0a4388.jpg

Max

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Ah. But mine nearly got written off last night!!! Was touching up the yellow and succeeded in flicking it off the bench into my lap. Reacting by closing knees together to prevent it landing on the floorending up crushing the model slightly!! Result: starboard struts came away and buckling the two rearmost cabane struts!!! &*$£!!!!! I managed to straighten the cabane struts and refit the main wing struts thus tensioning up the rigging wires safely. Phew!! The cabane struts still look a bit wobbly but at least straight and the model is saved.

And the wires between the cabane struts.. well still wobbly!

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Thanks for your informed input, gentlemen. But I'm still puzzled over how and where exactly those wires are attached to the front fuselage top. The wires in the red Tiggie shown in Black Knight's pic appear to be broken at their bottom end. Do those wires penetrate into the fuselage through a pair of holes? If so, exactly where are those holes located? Also, I didn't know they were streamlined, and tubular at their midpoint where they cross each other. The occurrence of the soldered (?) disk at their cross-junction seems to vary from airframe to airframe (on both pairs, only on front pair or none).

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The pic of the red one is probably the better one to go by as it shows the 'wires' enter juat in front of the screen. There is another pair in line with the forward cabane stryts by the way. The 'silver' one doesn't show where they enter the fuslage due to angle of photo.

But in 72nd or even 48th representing the aerofoil section is not really necessary.

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Yes, Paul, but notice that, in that photo, the lower end of one of the wires is broken and the "insertion point" of the other is obscured. It also appears that, due to the poor condition of this preserved museum artifact, the "wires" (better use inverted commas, they seem way too substantial -- or were they replaced by some extraneous material by the museum staff?) are placed flat against the windscreen, whereas other pictures show them a little further ahead. I agree that representing their aerofoil section in 1/72nd is an unneeded bother, I was just pondering that fact.

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Thanks for your informed input, gentlemen. But I'm still puzzled over how and where exactly those wires are attached to the front fuselage top. The wires in the red Tiggie shown in Black Knight's pic appear to be broken at their bottom end. Do those wires penetrate into the fuselage through a pair of holes? If so, exactly where are those holes located? Also, I didn't know they were streamlined, and tubular at their midpoint where they cross each other. The occurrence of the soldered (?) disk at their cross-junction seems to vary from airframe to airframe (on both pairs, only on front pair or none).

Don't think 'wire' - think 'rod', they're about 10mm thick. The 'rods' are threaded on the bottom end. They enter the fuselage through holes fitted with re-enforcement discs, like big washers. You can just make them out in my photo. The 'rods' are tensioned from inside the front fuselage. [At least on my example this is how they are]

The front pair of 'rods' are fitted exactly the same way.

The anti-vibration discs are held on by sets of crimps [which can just be made out top and bottom of the disc in my photo] and the paint. I dare say many have been lost over the years.

Neither of the wires/rods are broken on my sample; it just lacks some paint, as this machine is a regular flyer from my local airport

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Hi. I have a question for Tiggie experts. After going through many pictures, I still haven't figured out exactly how the center wing wires (those next to the cabane struts) are actually connected to the fuselage right behind the cowling. I believe both the front and aft pairs of wires are crossed over the fuselage (contrary to the rigging instructions in the AZModel kit, where the aft pair is shown parallel to the fuselage), but the insertion/attachment point on it are still puzzling to me. Could anyone show a clear picture (photo or drawing) of this arrangement? Thank you. PS.: Is anyone producing a photo-etch set for a 1/72 Tiger Moth? I'd love to apply the one that comes with the AZModels kit to the Airfix version as well.

Have you checked out our walkaround?

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/76585-de-havilland-dh82-tiger-moth/

Julien

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Thanks, Julien! The picture of K-2585 in the hangar with the wings removed does it! So, the arrangement between the front and aft rods IS different from each other. Those rods cross with their respective pair at different points, the aft rods much further down than the front ones. In both cases, the space between the starboard and port "penetration points" of those rods into the fuselage is much closer than their equivalents on the top wing.

In fact, I couldn't figure out exactly Black Knight's picture at first attempt, now it is clear. And, yes, I thought they were wires as in other kinds of filament across the cabane struts -- but they are actually rods. Gentlemen, it has been very instructive and I thank you all for your kind help.

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Hubba hubba! Thanks for the walkaround link- another department of Britmodeller that I don't usually think of, and there are some other possible inspirational schemes in the lineup. Hmm, how many of these does this normally 48th builder... err, accumulator, need to order? Two, at least.

So, the arrangement between the front and aft rods IS different from each other.

Bear in mind that the aft pair are "reaching forward" from their upper ends as they come down to the fuselage, while the front pair are more-or-less vertical (when looking from the side). It might be helpful to figure out where the rods actually anchor at the bottom end- that is, what bit of structure they attach to. I suspect it is the fuselage frame, concealed underneath the fuselage skin panel.

bob

Edited by gingerbob
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Hubba hubba! Thanks for the walkaround link- another department of Britmodeller that I don't usually think of,

bob

No problems, we have a lot of good stuff there, all sent in my fellow members.

Julien

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Gents

When it comes to rigging, you need to keep in mind what it is for. Rigging provides torsional stiffness to the wing structure and all rigging wires attach close to the ends of the struts. Follow the centre section wires on the Tiggee down from the top wing and you will see they will connect to the bottom end of the cabane struts, that was if the cowling was not there.

Regards Toby

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I've just seen this on my return from the Somme. The cabane bracing front and rear, both go to lugs at the base of the front cabane struts. These are fed through the sleeved holes in the top cowl and the lower ends are accessible via the two small circular panels on the firewall face above the engine bearers. They are then connected to the top (tank frame) of the cabane and adjusted accordingly.

John

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Take a look at these two views of the Tiger Moth taken from as near to being in line with the front cabane struts as I could find.

TigerMoth_VH-BVB_med_36-Copy-A_zps62fa81

dux_tm_06-Copy-A_zps1e5b99cc.jpg

You will see that the top cowling panel finishes just in front of the cabane struts and the side panels finish a little further to the rear. This is the same arrangement on all Moths.

. . . . and Airfix have got it wrong!!

Their front moulding finishes aft of the cabane struts with a step forward to clear the strut and then goes down to be in line with the rear of the side panel.

Well when it's glued together it sort of looks OK, but it does affect several things. Firstly, the tread-plate comes too far back and so if you put rigging in line with the front struts as you should, it will go through the tread-plate which is wrong. In fact, the appearance is of an overlong nose with only a short space in front of the windscreen.

It can be rectified, but it does require some surgery. I would suggest cutting off the top of the nose moulding down as far as the side panels just enough to leave a little over hang of the side panels. You then need to use plastic card to rebuild the front of the fuselage to meet and match the shortened cowling.

Alternatively, you could leave as is and shorten the tread-plate by filing off a small part at the rear, fill and smooth the upper join and scribe a new panel/fuselage join line in front of the struts. . . .or just leave it as is! But it is wrong.

There has been a lot said about this new kit and mostly very favourable, but I have to say there are a number of things that irritate me.

I do not like the way they have chosen to give the option of rear fuselage strakes. There must be a better way of doing this than serious surgery! I can envisage younger modellers having real trouble with this because it will involve accurate cutting and much filling and smoothing if you don't get it right. This was one of the things that Mark Davies mentioned in his recent review on Hyperscale. Even if you do this accurately it does not represent the top surface correctly. There should be join lines (which are not parallel) and rivets, not just a smooth surface.

31509-Copy-A_zps8bc645e0.jpg

I also don't like the huge blanked-off holes in the cockpit. Whether you use them or not they still have to be filled and smoothed without damaging the interior details.

And finally I can't understand why there is a line of holes underneath the tailplane. This is an internal feature and is surely covered with fabric. I can't find any shots to show this. I just filled them in! I would also have preferred separate venturi (as in the Hurricane kit) rather than being moulded on.

I like the kit, but mistakes have been made.

deecee.

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The info to design the kit came (if my information is correct) from DH Heritage archive material. From this you would assume that all would be correct. However in my experience DH GA drawings can vary in accuracy. In another instance the drawings in Moths Majors and Minors which were made from DH original material, can be quite misleading.

I didn't want to start a critique too early in the game but IMO the nose is too deep. This does appear on certain DH material. The problem with the Tiger is that it wasn't designed as such! It was physically evolved from the 60M airframe to become the 60T (T for trainer Gipsy II) to emerge as the swept wing 60T(T for Tiger, in this case), Gipsy III inverted. Along the way it got two differing sweep backs, two differing dihedrals and two changes of C of G. The first batch built of what appear to be DH 82's were in fact DH 60T's (Tiger Moth). Production drawings were then made as the DH 82. A lot of GA drawings however detailed are in fact DH 60 T(iger) based. A small clue is the cockpit doors, the front ones being deeper.

All the following dimensions are taken from the fuselage (Datum) top rail (tube). Firewall height above datum is 13.25". Front cockpit, front top edge height 16.25", Front cockpit rear top height, 16.25". Rear cockpit front 16.25". Rear cockpit, rear edge 15" high. Spinner C/L is 2.5" above top rail. Top of fuselage top rail to bottom of fuselage lower rail at wing front spar is 22.5". Doors are 8" high. The top rail to bottom rail included depth at the rear of the rear cockpit is 21.5". The slant length of the lower firewall is 24".

My fix to make it look fine is to carry out the cowl positioning mods as mentioned in an earlier post. File down the front fuselage top. check that the cowl and fuselage top are in a straight slope. (no gap, no kink and no step). File down the fuselage under side forwards of the wing to a wafer and do the same to the nose cowl but do not touch the chin. As mentioned in the post above. fill the cowl/ fuselage top join and re-scribe forwards of the cabane strut.

Yes, the perforated frame under the tail is covered with fabric. The Green Tiger in the above picture has a number of non standard changes.

John

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