dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I bought myself the Pilots and Planes book and after having a quick skim through, I read a little bit about the Mk IV's sometimes carrying asymmetrical loads, like a 40mm cannon and drop tank or a set of 4 rockets and drop tank. I've had a quick look on line and seen a couple of builds posted on here but other than that nothing. Can anyone tell me any more info such as load outs carried and what was on each pylon, ie drop tank st/board pylon, 40mm cannon port pylon etc. Did they even carry 1 bomb and a drop tank, 1 bomb and 1 40mm cannon etc etc. I would be most interested in modelling SEAC Hurricane IV's, so would these load outs be used in the SEAC or in other theatres of operations. thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 The only example I know of was the raid on Crete, where aircraft carried rockets on one wing and a fuel tank on the other. I don't see them as doing this with a 40mm cannon. Otherwise there cannot have been many reasons for operating at such an extended range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I think a Yugoslav (?) squadron was photographed with assymmetric loads, which would have been in the Balkan region. I agree one 40mm is unlikely- it would throw off the aim, and this was a specialty weapon anyway. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 The Squadron/Signal book has two photos; suggesting they are of 6 Sqdron on Prkos, which is probably what Graham is refering to. None of the SEAC Hurris in that book or my others show this sort of load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 (edited) Here's one (No.6) And another (Edit: reproduced below by Troy) Rockets one side, drop tank (fuel, or napalm?) other side. bob Edited March 8, 2014 by gingerbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 The known photos are of LF498 'R' of 6 squadron, rockets on starboard wing, drop tank on port. While not listed as being 'R' I think this is the same plane, note painted out sky band, and unusual underwing roundel are the same, and letter could well be 'R' I have wondered if this plane has been repainted from desert colours, note ow contrast between upper colours, lack of yellow leading edges and scruffy apperance. another shot from same session note it seems not to be a fixed arrangement. I read somewhere a load of 1 x40mm gun on one wing and 4x rockets on other wing was tried, but the gun recoil shook the rockets off! regarding colours, here is shot listed at being at Prkos, Yugoslavia, note yellow leading edges, and upper wing C roundels, presumably red spinners, same tone red in markings. previous thread on the Mk IV, http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/59225-hurricane-mk-iv-service/ note photos of wing panels. cheers Troy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLC1966 Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Although I doubt that they were known as Asymmetric Loadouts by the Hurricane groundcrew at the time !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Troy, if I'm not mistaken, that third shot (three in a line) neatly illustrates the "wood" versus metal blades? bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 The Crete raid was earlier than the Prkos operations. Did the later Hurricanes have any metal blades? Isn't the only difference between the blades shown, the angle of viewing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted March 8, 2014 Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 So judging from the pics, S/board wing rockets and port wing drop tanks, looks to be the one to model. Had anyone any idea what camouflage the No 6 Sqd Hurricanes are wearing in them pics? I guess I can still do a SEAC Hurricane but with a symmetrical load. Would the SEAC Hurricanes carried either a pair of 40mm cannon, or 2 lots of rockets or even a pair of bombs (if bombs what size bombs). While I'm thinking about SEAC Hurricanes, did their Mk IIc's get used as bombers at all? thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted March 8, 2014 Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 I've just been having a look at the AZ Hurricane IV's. One of them looks like it depicts a Hurricane with an asymmetric but I can't make out the squadron clearly. thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Hurribombers would have 250lb bombs normally but could carry 500lb bombs. MK.IIc Hurribombers did exist. 6 Sq was probably in Day Fighter colours, judging from the sky band and yellow leading edges.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudioN Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Maybe not all 6 Sqn Mk.IVs were in Day Fighter scheme? Look at this: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205209496 reportedly at Araxos, Greece. I'd like to hear opinions on KZ188:C, which some suggest might have Azure Blue undersides. http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205211812 To me it looks rather convincingly plain DFS with yellow leading edges, but… could the grey on the desert filter be too dark to be interpreted as Medium Sea Grey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I think ClaudioN's first picture shows tank on starboard wing & rockets on port wing on both aeroplanes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Presumably the 6 Sq aircraft will have been in Desert scheme, then repainted into Temperate Land uppers, then newer aircraft delivered in Day Fighter. What scheme you see will depend upon the date of the photos, with some overlap as older aircraft continued in service alongside newer ones. I have wondered about some of the more distant aircraft in the Prkos photos, because of the high contrast, but have come to realise just how much Ocean Grey can fade in strong sunlight. The usual other sign of a Desert scheme would be seeing the lighter colour around the cockpit area, which is not the case in the first IWM photo. However, with only one photo to judge from this is not a open-and-shut case, as exchanged colours appear on desert Hurricanes from a very early stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudioN Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 (edited) I think ClaudioN's first picture shows tank on starboard wing & rockets on port wing on both aeroplanes. It would seem both asymmetric dispositions were employed. Was there possibly a reason (e.g., propeller torque) to prefer one of the two…? Claudio Edited March 8, 2014 by ClaudioN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudioN Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Presumably the 6 Sq aircraft will have been in Desert scheme, then repainted into Temperate Land uppers, then newer aircraft delivered in Day Fighter. I agree, my question is whether a Day Fighter Scheme with undersides repainted in Azure Blue would be likely. This is the interpretation given in the "On Target" Profile no. 12 and "Combat Colours" no. 2 Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Troy, if I'm not mistaken, that third shot (three in a line) neatly illustrates the "wood" versus metal blades? bob The Crete raid was earlier than the Prkos operations. Did the later Hurricanes have any metal blades? Isn't the only difference between the blades shown, the angle of viewing them. Graham what bob is talking about is the two types of [presumeably] Rotol blades fitted to Hurricanes, an early type as seen on BoB era mak I's onward, with a bulged lower leading edge, and a later type, without the bulge. The two types can be seen in the 3rd photo i posted. This came up in the Night Intruder thread in WIP as a question about different propeller blades supplied in various 1/48th Hasegawa kits, one being listed in the Hasegawa index on Modeling madness as 'metal' blades. http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234956061-hasegawa-148-hawker-hurricane-mk-iic-spot-the-mistake/ Ultracast do two types http://ultracast.ca/products/48/180/default.htm Rotol 11'3" Propeller with Tapered Tips http://ultracast.ca/products/48/181/default.htm Rotol 11'3" Propeller with Round Tips but neither of these has the bulged root, clearly visible here the lack of bulge is seen in pic 3 I posted, and in this shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 DFS with Azure Blue undersides? Certainly not "likely". It is impossible to rule it out but.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 So judging from the pics, S/board wing rockets and port wing drop tanks, looks to be the one to model. Had anyone any idea what camouflage the No 6 Sqd Hurricanes are wearing in them pics? I guess I can still do a SEAC Hurricane but with a symmetrical load. Would the SEAC Hurricanes carried either a pair of 40mm cannon, or 2 lots of rockets or even a pair of bombs (if bombs what size bombs). While I'm thinking about SEAC Hurricanes, did their Mk IIc's get used as bombers at all? thanks Mike Mike First, in this pic the assimtric load was on either wing, as I pointed when I posted. compare 1st and 2nd plane remember the rocket plates are handed. regarding IIC Hurribombers, yes, eg There are more. Can't find them at the mo but famous shots. They will be on IWM site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Given the postings regarding possible variations in camouflage schemes, i wonder if my post get read carefully.... The known photos are of LF498 'R' of 6 squadron, rockets on starboard wing, drop tank on port. While not listed as being 'R' I think this is the same plane, note painted out sky band, and unusual underwing roundel are the same, and letter could well be 'R' I have wondered if this plane has been repainted from desert colours, note low contrast between upper colours, lack of yellow leading edges and scruffy apperance. regarding colours, here is shot listed at being at Prkos, Yugoslavia, note yellow leading edges, and upper wing C roundels, presumably red spinners, same tone red in markings. I agree, my question is whether a Day Fighter Scheme with undersides repainted in Azure Blue would be likely. This is the interpretation given in the "On Target" Profile no. 12 and "Combat Colours" no. 2 Claudio Claudio, 'interpretation' is the key word here. The books have some pretty pictures, but I'd not trust them. Certainly planes in SEAC were delivered in Desert Scheme, and had the Middle Stone overpainted with Dark Green, and i can believe that Desert Scheme MkIV's ended up the same way, LF498 could be a candidate for this, possibly even with just Dark Green added. which is the Tropical Temperate Land Scheme? But, operating over the Mediterranean I'd presume DFS would be a better scheme. Would they bother painting the bottom Azure blue? Hmm, are there Spitfire showing this scheme? I recall a colour photo showing this, or am I getting confused But, I'd suggest that I'd like to hear opinions on KZ188:C, which some suggest might have Azure Blue undersides. KZ188 in the pic above, the filter is soft shadow, note the high, bright sunlight. I think DFS with a Red Spinner, note the just visible upperwing C roundels, better seen on the plane in the background. Also, note plane in top right background, showing assimetric load Note, the 6 squadron was operating with Spitfire's from 73 sq from Prkos. I'd presume the photos are from the same session, and these are DFS. I don't know, and as we only have B/W pictures, does anyone. One point, note the pale appearance of the red in the roundels and spinner, and the dark appearance of the Blue, effect of some kind of filter to deal with bright sunlight, and would also make Ocean Grey appear darker [being a blue hued grey] Were MkIV's actually supplied in Desert Scheme? IID's certainly, but when the MKIV came in were many Hurricanes being built in Desert Scheme, or had the switch to just DFS [to ease production] come in as planes supplied to the Far East just had the Ocean Grey repainted in Dark Earth? I don't know the answers to these, just pointing out possibilities. T EDIT ps Again, assimetric load, but much softer light, no hard shadows. Note the unusual proportions of the underwing roundel on plane in background, and then I looked again at this shot Note lack of underwing roundels on leading plane, and non standard c type on 3rd plane back. I need to eat and stop peering at these! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 LF498 is unlikely to have been repainted from Desert, because it, like the first aircraft in the last photo, has a Sky Band overpainted. Sky is of course presumed, but... Re the Spitfires' spinners - there are three different hues on the four aircraft shown. I suspect that at least two of them are not Red. My guess from the tones (dangerous stuff!) would be Medium Sea Grey (maybe Red), Sky, Sky and Blue (or Black). The three Hurricanes in the bottom picture could be Red, Red and Sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I've found reports of several trials, undertaken at the request of the Air Ministry, and, though I've found a couple on tank + rockets, I've never found one on gun plus rockets, or gun + tank. It was found that the rockets tended to veer, slightly, and the aircraft needed careful trimming, with landing with the tank still attached needing care, but nothing major. They also only referred to asymmetric loads, not loadouts (is there a loadin?) Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 FWIW I wouldn't be surprised if the different spinner colours were flight colours. F/Lt Donald McKay of 274 Sqn confirmed that despite the a belief in 'standard' universal red spinners flight colours were used on some Desert Air Force and ME aircraft and this extended to their distinctive lightning flash fuselage marking - black edged red on 'A' flight aircraft and blue edged yellow on 'B' flight aircraft. I have another personal reference to spinners in flight colours in the ME but need to dig it out. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted March 9, 2014 Author Share Posted March 9, 2014 Hurribombers would have 250lb bombs normally but could carry 500lb bombs. MK.IIc Hurribombers did exist. 6 Sq was probably in Day Fighter colours, judging from the sky band and yellow leading edges.. So to clarify, if I wanted to model a SEAC Hurricane IIc, it would be reasonable to model it carrying bombs. thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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