Wingtip lights on clipped-wing Spitfires/Seafires

[davidelvy]

I'm wondering whether Spitfires and Seafires with clipped wings used coloured bulbs with clear covers or whether the cover was coloured and the bulb was clear. I'm aware that there was more than one style of clipped wing and that some were simply plain wood shaped to fit.

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Edited January 26, 2014 by davidelvy

[Seawinder]

I'm wondering whether Spitfires and Seafires with clipped wings used coloured bulbs with clear covers or whether the cover was coloured and the bulb was clear. I'm aware that there was more than one style of clipped wing and that some were simply plain wood shaped to fit.

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Photos of port sides of Mk. XIVs and XVIs show red tinted covers. Mk. XIIs didn't have them at all.

Cheers,

Pip

[davidelvy]

Thanks Pip.

Do you have any thoughts on clipped wing Vcs and Seafires?

[Seawinder]

Thanks Pip.

Do you have any thoughts on clipped wing Vcs and Seafires?

I've got one photo of a clipped-wing Seafire IIc (starboard side) that has a tinted cover. The two photos I could find of clipped-wing Mk. Vs don't seem to have nav lights.

[davidelvy]

Thanks again Pip. I thought there might have been a few more responses, but the information you have given me is most helpful.

[Edgar]

If there's one thing I've learnt, during my researches, it's not to be totally pedantic about a subject.

The tip on the Vb, was drawn as being carved from wood, therefore no lights (presumably no longer considered important on aircraft not destined for night flying.)
The tip, on the Vc, IX, XII & XVI, was apparently supposed to have lights, according to an illustration on wing drawings for the IX/XVI (36108 sheet 12 & 11, which I have) which gives a part number in the Mk.XII range (36608 sheet 4, which I don't have) for the shortened wingtip, and the illustration of that tip appears to show a light cover, though it isn't clear.

There is also a drawing, for the XII (36636 sheet 11,) which has a label (to be attached to the inside of the cover to the fuse box,) showing a list of all the cables which make up the electrical circuit, and 22 & 24 are listed, respectively, as being for the "navigation light starboard," and "navigation light port and pressure head heating."

So, even though, from photographs, it appears that the XII had no lights (although some photos are ambiguous,) it also appears that it should have had them, so it's a mite dangerous to say that none of the 100 had them.

Edgar

[Seawinder]

If there's one thing I've learnt, during my researches, it's not to be totally pedantic about a subject.

The tip on the Vb, was drawn as being carved from wood, therefore no lights (presumably no longer considered important on aircraft not destined for night flying.)

The tip, on the Vc, IX, XII & XVI, was apparently supposed to have lights, according to an illustration on wing drawings for the IX/XVI (36108 sheet 12 & 11, which I have) which gives a part number in the Mk.XII range (36608 sheet 4, which I don't have) for the shortened wingtip, and the illustration of that tip appears to show a light cover, though it isn't clear.

There is also a drawing, for the XII (36636 sheet 11,) which has a label (to be attached to the inside of the cover to the fuse box,) showing a list of all the cables which make up the electrical circuit, and 22 & 24 are listed, respectively, as being for the "navigation light starboard," and "navigation light port and pressure head heating."

So, even though, from photographs, it appears that the XII had no lights (although some photos are ambiguous,) it also appears that it should have had them, so it's a mite dangerous to say that none of the 100 had them.

Edgar

Well, there you go -- I did my Mk. XII last year with nav lights and was informed by a (presumably) knowledgeable poster that they shouldn't be there, so I painted them out. I must say none of the photos to which I have access seem to show them.

Pip

[Steve in Ottawa]

I've been Googling around looking for some ideas on clipped wing Spitfire Vb wingtip lights and came across this 2014 thread. I'm looking at this well-known 1943 photo of Spitfire Vb W3834, and it seems to pretty clearly show that there is an aerodynamic lens at the leading edge 'corner' of the wingtip. What I can't quite decide upon is whether this is a clear lens with a coloured bulb, or a coloured lens. Any thoughts on what the wartime trend was for Spitfires? I'm not keen on using any modern photos of restored aircraft as a guide.

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Steve in Ottawa
clarifying wording

[Junchan]

The clipped wing tips on the Mk. XII and early Mk.V were made of wood and did not have the nav lights.

 

While, the subsequent Marks had the metal tips with nav lights.

 

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums

[KevinK]

There's an exception to this (isn't there always?).

 

Quite often, 'clipped wing' Spitfires didn't start out that way. On my Dad's squadron, 253, operating in Italy/Yugoslavia with Spit VIIIs and IXs in 1944/45 there were instances of wingtip damage from combat or other cause. When this happened, the invariable fix was to remove the wingtips and replace them with a piece of wood shaped to fit. You lost your nav lights, but gained roll rate, useful for the fighter-bomber role.

 

The overseas Squadrons had to be resourceful as spares were often in short supply.

 

Kevin

[Work In Progress]

You also gain longitudinal stability, which improves the control harmony; the ability to pull more G before something breaks; and a surprising amount of additional visibility of the ground to the left and right. All of which are useful in the low-flying environment.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Work In Progress

[Steve in Ottawa]

Good info, Jun, thanks for posting it.

 

I think we're all agreed that the initial version of the clipped wingtip was just plain wood, but by 1943 (the date of the photo of W3834 above) it looks like the clipped wingtip was like your second drawing, made of metal and with the aerodynamic light fairing in place.

 

I'm still pondering whether the version used on W3834 is a clear lens with the standard wingtip's coloured lamp shining through it, or if the wartime clipped wingtip had a coloured lens. From what I think I see in the photo I'm now leaning towards it being a clear lens with a coloured light bulb inside it, but happy to discuss further.

 

I'm also willing to entertain that a different/later version of the metal wingtip had red and green coloured lenses incorporated in their construction. Lots of fun to try and figure this stuff out.

[gingerbob]

Hi Steve,

 

I went looking and found surprisingly little good evidence in photos.  One well known color Mk.V shot made me lean toward colored bulb/clear lens, too, but not enough to want to say so.  The standard-span tips had colored lenses.

[Steve in Ottawa]

Which photo is that, Bob? Do you have a URL for it, perchance? 

 

What you're saying about the standard wingtip makes sense to me. It would dumb to have a normal light bulb only in the wingtip.  It would need the protection of a harder cover.

[gingerbob]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/8270787@N07/8602734232

 

[Junchan]

Here are some contemporary color photos of clipped wing Spitfires. Some of them obviously have tinted cover and others look like to have tinted bulb.

The last one is not in color, but it has apparently the tinted cover.

 

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums

[Steve in Ottawa]

Hi Jun,

 

Thanks for the images. Clearly (no pun intended) it appears that there were two styles of metal clipped wingtips - clear glass and coloured glass. Looking at the photos the coloured glass is, generally speaking, on the late-war/post-war aircraft. So for my model of a 1943-era Spitfire Vb I think I'll go with the clear glass and coloured bulbs.

Great discussion and material sharing!

Edited March 16, 2017 by Steve in Ottawa
finished an incomplete thought...