In defence of the Supermarine Swift

[xvtonker]

Didn't its reheat, uh, not work, though?

(NB I like the Swift, though.)

It may not have been reliable, but then again you don't need reheat at low level for FR operations.........

XVTonker

[Procopius]

I am always wary when people slate a particular type.We have the advantage of hind sight,at the time these airframes were being produced,they were cutting edge.People forget what these aircraft replaced.Both the swift and the javelin replaced Meteors.not exactly the best thing since sliced bread.Am sure a pilot of the day would have rather gone to war in a firestreak/cannon armed javelin than a cannon armed meteor.

And given the choice, I'd prefer to go to war in a P-26 over a Sopwith Dolphin, but it'd be criminal to expect me to face a Bf109 in it.

[sean]

As someone who loves modelling 1/72 Airfix, new or old, I'm delighted, long may it continue. As I didn't

have to fly one or look after one, I don't care if it was fat, slow or ugly, it's a plane, that's all I need to build

one. Well done Airfix, more please,

Sean

[wellsprop]

I WANT THIS SWIFT

The Swift was Supermarine's final swan sing really, it stayed in service until the 70's; furthermore it was developed from the attacker, which in turn was developed from the Spiteful XIV, which is a modified Spitfire XIV.

So its the somewhere in its ancestral history, it is the off-spring of RJ Mitchell's K5054. I simply HAVE to have it to compliment my Spitfire lineage!

Ben.

[Driver66]

I WANT THIS SWIFT

The Swift was Supermarine's final swan sing really, it stayed in service until the 70's; furthermore it was developed from the attacker, which in turn was developed from the Spiteful XIV, which is a modified Spitfire XIV.

So its the somewhere in its ancestral history, it is the off-spring of RJ Mitchell's K5054. I simply HAVE to have it to compliment my Spitfire lineage!

Ben.

Are you sure it stayed in service until the 70s ?

[AnonymousAA72]

Finally, Bill who started this thread tries to defend the aircraft by saying it was the first RAF aircraft to enter service with a swept wing (which was actually the Sabre) and the first to enter service with reheat (it was said at the time it was the only RAF aircraft that needed it), let's face it, the Hunter out-performed it!

But please, can we stop pretending that the Swift was anything other than the Hunter's unlovely, ugly sister?

Wez

I never said anything about the Swift being a 'looker'!! My argument is simply that the Swift deserves its place in History for the reasons outlined....it was the first British built Swept wing fighter (thanks for pointing that one out Wez!)., and for whatever reason it had reheat....them's the facts!

[baldeagle]

Regarding the comment on the Swift afterburner,I have a vivid recollection of one cruising up at low level over the airfield on Sylt,having two Hunters attempt to bounce it.The pilot cut in the re-heat and turned underneath them,apparently leaving the Hunter pilots with little idea of where he had gone.In the hands of an experienced pilot,the Hunter would not have found it easy to cope,and could even have ended up as a kill.

I am glad that we should finally have a really good kit for a somewhat unjustly maligned aircraft,

Bill.

[Sten Ekedahl]

Here's an interesting project for you. complete the Hawk kit. Follow it up with an Xtrakit Swift. Then finish the trilogy off with an Airfix one. Display 'em all together and post the pictures on BM.

Don't forget the Rareplanes vacformed kit too.

[Max Headroom]

Don't forget the Rareplanes vacformed kit too.

I'm sure either Merlin or Veeday did one too.

Trevor

[Wez]

I never said anything about the Swift being a 'looker'!! My argument is simply that the Swift deserves its place in History for the reasons outlined....it was the first British built Swept wing fighter (thanks for pointing that one out Wez!)., and for whatever reason it had reheat....them's the facts!

True, you never said it was a looker and I'd agree whole heartedly it deserves a place in history.

Regarding the comment on the Swift afterburner,I have a vivid recollection of one cruising up at low level over the airfield on Sylt,having two Hunters attempt to bounce it.The pilot cut in the re-heat and turned underneath them,apparently leaving the Hunter pilots with little idea of where he had gone.In the hands of an experienced pilot,the Hunter would not have found it easy to cope,and could even have ended up as a kill.

I am glad that we should finally have a really good kit for a somewhat unjustly maligned aircraft,

Bill.

Interesting, I would loved to have seen the look of surprise on the Hunter pilot's faces, no doubt that reheat would allow for a nice bit of acceleration!

Wez

[SimonR]

Good on Airfix I say, they seem to be striking the right balance between providing kits for the mainstream hobby market and the odd curveball for us enthusiasts. And they can be made up into excellent models OOB without spending the price of the kit again on after market stuff if you don't want to!

[Work In Progress]

Some of you will remember Ray Hanna, who at the time of his death in 2005 was the most experienced Spitfire pilot in the world and also at various times a Hunter and F-86 pilot, also having experience of many of the earlier jet fighter designs.

Back in the 1980s I once made the mistake of being rude about the Swift in his presence. I was a completely wet behind the ears baby pilot and based my erudite opininon on little more than having read about the problems of the F.1 and F.2.

There was a long silence and then a deep Kiwi sigh, following which he very quietly and graciously pointed out the largely forgotten success of the FR.5 as a low level recce machine, and how much he had enjoyed it in his time on 79 in Germany. (This was long before the Nigel Walpole book came out), For him it was the definitive low level jet, the aeroplane on which he really learned the skills which he later used through his long display career. In his eyes it was every bit as good an aeroplane (in FR.5 form) as anything else available at the time for low-level visual flying, and as much fun to fly as his Spitfire, MH434.

The Swift was undoubtedly a failure at its originally intended design role, just as the Typhoon was - both intended as high level interceptors, neither satisfactory for that task. However in both cases they subsequently did sterling work in the low-level roles that they both happily turned out to excel at, and deserve their place in history.

Aeroplanes can be judged successes or failures on many criteria. Some are pretty and some are ugly, and both those aesthetics can make compelling models. Some like the Battle and Defiant were very pleasant, viceless flying machines that were simply militarily ineffective because at the time they came to fight, their specifications no longer made sense. Some are mad, bad and dangerous to know, but were so interesting that they make up for it (Me163 perhaps). Some have really quite serious safety and/or handling problems judged purely as flying machines, but are so capable in other ways that people are happy to work round those problems because they can do a job militarily (late Beaufighter, early Halifax, late Mossie, almost all Meteors, F-104). Some are just unpleasant to fly but soldier on and eventually gain some affection (Javelin).

Anyway, all this reminiscence has made me realise that I'm going to have to buy a Swift when the new kit comes out, something I didn't realise a couple of days ago.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Work In Progress

[Giorgio N]

"We have the advantage of hind sight, at the time these airframes were being produced, they were cutting edge"

Were they ? The Swift F.1 enters service in February 1954. In September of the same year the USAF welcomes the F-100 in service.

The Swift FR.5 enters service in February 1956. In April of the same year the F-102 is in service. The RF-101A enters service in May 1957.

The Swift FR.5 was the first British type with reheat. 5 months before the entry into service of the FR.5, North American had delivered the last of 2405 F-86D to the USAF, the F-86D being the first USAF type equipped with reheat (or afterburning, as better known across the pond). The type had entered service in December 1951.

Similarly, the Swift was the first UK built type with swept wings, 5 years after the F-86A. And in those days, 5 years were a lot

At the same time it's true that the Swift and types like the Javelin replaced types that were even more dated, like the mentioned Meteors, so they were a giant leap forward for the British industry. An industry that however, for a number of reasons that have been widely discussed, had lost a number of years and found itselfe seriously lagging behind the US and the USSR.

To add a bit more to the discussion, unrelated to the Swift but related to the British industry in the days in general, I remember reading about the relations between De Havilland and the Italian Government and industry at the start of the license production of the Vampire by Macchi. DH had illustrated to the Italian partners the plan they had for the future of this collaboration and they foresaw the evolution of the future products in this way:

1)The Vampire, an early first generation jet (that was what was offered at that time)

2) The Venom, an evolution capable of higher speeds thanks to a wing with swept leading edge

3a) A type with proper swept wings capable of high transonic speeds and supersonic in a dive

3b) A larger 2 seat night fighter with similar transonic capabilities (that could have been the DH.110)

All good, however the reality of evolution was quite different as the US and USSR went straight from 1 to 3 so that while the UK had their first transonic fighters ready, they were already at the stage of having true supersonic fighters.

Britain fortunately later regained some time by skipping the Mach 1.something generation altogether and going directly to the Mach 2 Lightning.. but that's another story.. and another recent Airfix kit !

[robvulcan]

Well I am absolutely itching to build one I have wanted to have a crack at a swift for ages I just hope we get a scimitar too I had heard rumour at Telford we may be getting a 48th airfix one at some point I hope that rumour bears fruit. A 48th scimitar would make the world seem right to me.

[JohnT]

Some of you will remember Ray Hanna, who at the time of his death in 2005 was the most experienced Spitfire pilot in the world and also at various times a Hunter and F-86 pilot, also having experience of many of the earlier jet fighter designs.

Back in the 1980s I once made the mistake of being rude about the Swift in his presence. I was a completely wet behind the ears baby pilot and based my erudite opininon on little more than having read about the problems of the F.1 and F.2.

There was a long silence and then a deep Kiwi sigh, following which he very quietly and graciously pointed out the largely forgotten success of the FR.5 as a low level recce machine, and how much he had enjoyed it in his time on 79 in Germany. (This was long before the Nigel Walpole book came out), For him it was the definitive low level jet, the aeroplane on which he really learned the skills which he later used through his long display career. In his eyes it was every bit as good an aeroplane (in FR.5 form) as anything else available at the time for low-level visual flying, and as much fun to fly as his Spitfire, MH434.

Well Ray Hanna would know and thats good enough for me !!

Interesting how well respected pilots can have a take on machines that runs contrary to the accepted wisdom on them. E.g. - Eric Brown on the He 219, much vaunted "Mosquito Killer". He wrote its reputation was overrated. there was much about the aircraft he liked, e.g. cockpit layout but he concluded that it was "basically a good night fighter in concept but it suffered from what is perhaps the nastiest characteristic that any twin engined aircraft can have - it was underpowered." He goes on to say it would have found a mosquito a handful but not 4 engined heavies. When I first learned of the 219 as a lad it was this was Germany's answer to the Mosquito. Funny how a reputation is not always justified.

[Enzo the Magnificent]

Here's an interesting video featuring some Swifts.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060022261

Who will be the first to build one in this scheme? It will need a bit of weathering...

[viscount806x]

Are you sure it stayed in service until the 70s ?

Probably if you include the wingless F7 at Cranfield doing wet runway trials....

[Dave Fleming]

The other advantage the Swift had was that not many fast jets could fly THROUGH a forest and not only survive, but make it back home. 'Green coloured low cloud' was the pilot's impression.

[David H]

Well, i'm no expert on the Swift, but i actually like it largely for its planform; its got a distinctly shaped swept wing. FWIW, the F-101 Voodoo was also designed and mass produced to an ill-conceived mission requirement, and it achieved its greatest fame in the low level recce role , just like the Swift.

At least, when its cameras were working.... It was a good interceptor as long as it only had to hassle with bombers.

Perhaps this is part of a longer-range Airfix strategy to represent all the Supermarine types...Seems logical the Scimitar would come next, just not sure which scale.

And FWIW there's a boatload of British types still begging to be issued in a definitive form...

DH Hornet and Vampire (48th)

Hawker Hunter (48th)

Hawker Tempest and Sea Fury

Westwind Whirlwind (72nd and 48th)

Supermarine Scimitar, Spitfire MK XIV/XVIII, 21/ Seafire 45

Avro Lincoln and Shackleton

and more....

True, these have all been kitted at the cottage industry/ short-run level, but i know Airfix could do a good job on any one of those if their recent history is any indication.

Running for cover now...

david

[andy wood]

Looking at this I just think "whats not to like" Its just beautiful.. I wonder if the cockpit frames are separately molded or just primed...

It Is also an attractive shape for whiff schemes too.

re

Reminds me of the Saab Lansen from this angle

[Procopius]

It looks vaguely like a large banana split.

[Enzo the Magnificent]

It looks vaguely like a large banana split.

Which one? Fleegle, Bingo, Drooper or Snorky?

[IanHx]

Now that's the question that's been lurking in the shadows.

What subject qualifies for a place on my shelf? Solely the fact that I want one there. And if the question is entirely subjective, the answer is entirely absolute. Like true love I cannot define it but I will surely know it when I see it.

1. will it fit on my shelves ? [ looks remorsefully at 1:72 Valkyrie, Vulcan and Victor kits in the stash....]

2. is it an Airfix Avro Arrow or F-108 ?

[Dave Fleming]

Reminds me of the Saab Lansen from this angle

I always thought that, then realised the Lansen was a two seater and much bigger!

[Procopius]

Which one? Fleegle, Bingo, Drooper or Snorky?

I had to look this up. My father was twelve when that first aired.