No. 151 Sqn Bolton Paul Defiant Query

[Cometracer]

Hi,

On 3 May 41, a Defiant brought down a Ju 88A-5 over Norfolk. The crew are said to be P/O Guy A. Edmison and Sgt A.G. Beale. Do you know the code letters and serial of the Defiant they were flying?

Any help appreciated.

Thanks!

Gary

[Seahawk]

Alec Brew's The Turret Fighters has this Edmison/Beale vistory over a Ju 88 as taking place on 2 May 1941. All sorts of possibilities: maybe the 2nd was the start of the mission, maybe the combat took place around or even over midnight, maybe 3 May was when the victory was reported. Anyway, they were serving with 151 Sq, in which case the squadron code would have been "DZ".

This combat does not seem to get a mention in Alec Brew's The Defiant File and Edmison is not listed in the index but Sgt Beale gets mentions as the gunner in a couple of other 151 Sq Definat engagements (Ju 88 destroyed 15 Nov 1941, Do 217 destroyed on 19 Feb 1942).

Not much of an advance, but some.

[Ivor Ramsden]

The 151 Squadron Operations Record Book shows that P/O Edmiston (with a T) and Sgt Beale had a busy time on 2nd and 3rd May.

They flew in Defiant N3386 S from Coltishall to Wittering between 14.45 and 15.20.

Between 20.55 and 21.10 they took N3317 O up on an air test.

Between 21.50 and 22.30 they were again in N3317 O, on patrol.

Between 01.30 and 02.45 on the 3rd they were up in N3378 Z on patrol.

Frustratingly the ORB doesn't say which aircraft they were in when they shot down the enemy aircraft and it lists the flight in the early morning of the 3rd under the entry for the 2nd, so I'd say it could have been either N3317 or N3378. If you want to go for the 3rd, it's got to be N3378.

Edit P/O Edmiston's combat report at Kew times the incident at 01.36 so that settles that one, it was N3378, DZ:Z.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Ivor Ramsden

[Seahawk]

Edit P/O Edmiston's combat report at Kew times the incident at 01.36 so that settles that one, it was N3378, DZ:Z.

Of which there is a photo on p.85 of The Defiant File: it's the one with the sharkmouth, as catered for in one of the iterations of the Airfix kit.

[gingerbob]

Nicely done, Ivor. (and Seahawk)

bob

[Cometracer]

You guys are alright! Thanks.

The Airfix Defiant kit mentioned, although with the codes DZ Z, the serial number is 3328, not 3378. So Sgt Ritchie's aircraft could have been a replacement, unless they just got the serial wrong. The kit markings are said to be from Dec '41.

The Ju-88 is reported to have gone down at 03:30 on 3 May 41.

I really appreciate the help.

Thanks!

Gary

[Seahawk]

My mistake: the photo in the Air Britain book is quite clearly of N3328, DZ-Z.

The individual histories have N3328 with 151 Sq between 12 Dec 1940 (arrival from 10 MU) and 22 Aug 1941 (departure to 43 Group) but do not record any 151 Sq service for N3378 (To 255 Sq 8 Dec 1940, crashed near Glossop 29 Aug 1941 with loss of both crew. Its wreckage subsequently formed the basis for the reconstruction/restoration project conduced by the Boulton Paul Association from 1994 onwards.)

Make of that what you will. Personally I fight shy of dismissing contemporaneous records out of hand. On the other hand it's an easy transcription error to make... And the Airfix date definitely looks wrong.

BTW, N3317 is recorded as issued to 151 Sq on 19 Aug 1940 (becoming DZ-O) and leaving for 43 Group on 29 July 1941.

[Vicarage Vee]

Is there any other mention of N3378 in the 151Sq ORB? That would lend weight to a transcription error.

The Blitz Then & Now Vol 2 has a photo of the Ju88 on Weybourne Beach.

Looks as if Ivor has the correct spelling too, there is a Guy Arthur F Edmiston born 1918 West Derby, Lancs on the free BMD index (also a marriage in 1950 in Alton Hants and death in Westminster in 1989).... I really should get to bed!

Edited December 16, 2013 by Vicarage Vee

[Ivor Ramsden]

Interesting. I've checked the ORB for May again. It's handwritten but aircraft Z is clearly N3378 every time it's mentioned, which is very frequently. It could be something as daft as the squadron having a list of aircraft hanging on the wall for reference, upon which somebody had incorrectly written down Z's serial number. Or the serial could have been painted wrongly on the aircraft but this is unlikely on such a relatively new machine unless it had been badly damaged, repaired and repainted.

I've had a look at the July ORB and that refers to N3328 every time. N3378 has disappeared, which suggests it was a cock-up in recording in May. The N-prefixed aircraft had almost all left operational service with 151 Sqn before December. By then they were nearly all AA-prefixed machines. N3378 or 3328 aren't mentioned at all in December's ORB.

Another point - by July whoever was keeping the ORB had stopped including individual aircraft letters, so you were very lucky to get the full details, Cometracer!

If I was modelling it I think the evidence is fairly conclusive that N3328 was the serial for DZ-Z.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Ivor Ramsden

[Vicarage Vee]

That sounds a plausible explanation Ivor, I suppose the only other source of evidence now (unless there is a photo) would be a log book of a 151Sq crew member at the RAF Museum or elsewhere?

[Edgar]

12-12-40 is exactly the date of the Air Ministry Order, instituting the Sky tail band. If your airframe arrived without the band (as seems likely) it would normally have been painted over the serial no., which would have needed to be repainted; any mistake in writing the serial down, and repainting it would seem quite feasible (it happened to, at least, 3 Spitfires, and the subject of the 1/48 Tamiya Beaufighter, so there are precedents.)

Edgar

[Seahawk]

12-12-40 is exactly the date of the Air Ministry Order, instituting the Sky tail band. If your airframe arrived without the band (as seems likely) it would normally have been painted over the serial no., which would have needed to be repainted; any mistake in writing the serial down, and repainting it would seem quite feasible (it happened to, at least, 3 Spitfires, and the subject of the 1/48 Tamiya Beaufighter, so there are precedents.)

Edgar

Ah but the photo of N3328 shows it to be in overall Night. Neither it nor N3378 nor N3317 seem to have seen any previous service with day fighter squadrons. I'd be inclined to believe they were delivered in Night so Sky bands would not have been applicable.

[Edgar]

Having had my information thrown back into my face, I shall, of course, withdraw.

[larumivi1951]

Here You can see that DZ-Z of 151 Sqd. was N3328.

But other crewmembers are mentioned.

Rudolph, Denmark

[Ivor Ramsden]

The ORB shows that the crew-aircraft combinations in 151 Squadron seem to have been completely random for most crews.

N3378 disappears from the ORB forever in mid-May but (assuming it's the same aircraft) it reappears as N3328 on 11th June and ever afterwards.

I wonder if the shark mouth was painted on after the kill?

Edited December 17, 2013 by Ivor Ramsden