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ya-gabor

Kitty Hawk Mig-25PD/PDS Detailing & Corrections

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One important point I have to add. This thread was not started by me. I don’t intend to build the Kitty Hawk MiG-25 kit and as such it has nothing to do here on Work in Progress! My original post was a reply to a review of the kit here on britmodeller. It was the administrators of britmodeller who have moved it here.

My only purpose with the posts was and still is to help anyone who intends to build the kit in identifying the parts, places where corrections should be made, the errors by the manufacturer which need attention. I can only show what is wrong on the kit and try to give some ideas on how to mend them.

I wish all good modeling!

Best regards

Gabor

Hi Mike,

The new Kitty Hawk MiG-25 kit is much better than anything before, that is the Revell kit. But lets say you dont need much to be better than that!

There are several and problems with the kit. First of all the designers could not decide on what they wanted to do and so crammed everything into one kit. On many parts they have added particular features of different subtypes of the Foxbat. I understand that they want to have as many kits on the market as possible and there have been already photos of the future recon/bomber MiG-25 RB version as well as the twoseat trainers, and since there are some Kh-58 missiles are also on the sprues we can assume that there will be a MiG-25BM Wild Weasel version of the box too sooner or later. Mr Song tried to defend the mistakes and admitted on another forum that it was difficult to get any information on this aircraft, fortunately today there is wealth of publication, books on the Foxbat but what is far more important there are many original airframes all around the world and not only in Russia, which are available to measure and examine for details.

Just a short list to start and some illustrations to go with them:

- The kit is supposed to be PD/PDS interceptor version, for start it has the engine exhaust of the RB/BM version. For the P a brand new set of nozzles will be required!

- The tail fins have the details of all the versions, so you need some rework on it to make it adaptable to the particular version you are building.

- The long bulge at the base of the fin is there only on the left fin (on both sides) and only on the PD/PDS versions.

- One needs to cut off the small intakes and sand, while on the right side you need to fill in the hole for the additional intake. It is there only for the RB versions.

- The intake ramp has been mentioned before, this can be solved with an intake cover.

- There is a serious shape problem with the engine covers going all the way back from the main gear bays, this is not so easy to fix

- The small fins on the underside are shown as symmetrical items, unfortunately they are completely different. The one in the kit is good only on the right side.

- The air brake on top of the fuselage has no bay of any sort, the air brake simply fits onto the surface. The bay in the KH kit is pure fiction!

- The air brake on the under side has a wrongly shaped bay.

- There is a big overflow exhaust on the left side near the tail on the underside, completely missing

- The pressure relief doors are shown as holes in the fuselage, they should be engraved circular panels, only with engine running would they be open. You need to fill and engrave them.

- There are two panels on the underside of the engine bays which are not there on the real aircraft in the form shown by the KH designers. What we see on the kit is the reverse side of the given panel, that is the nice detail should be inside the fuselage. Shave it off completely and sand.

- The reinforcement rib on the middle of the main gear bay outer wall was used only on a handful of preproduction experimental aircraft! Shave it off and sand.

- On top of the fuselage beautiful engraved panels lines with lots of rivets are shown on the kit. The only problem with this is that the MiG-25 was mostly welded from steel parts. The internal structure of the skin panels was spot welded to it and not riveted. There are some very ugly weld lines all over the fuselage. Fill the rivets, sand and add weld lines.

- The missile pylons have the shape of the interceptor version but a ram air intake for the Kh-58 missile pylon for the MiG-25BM was added on them. Cut it off and sand. The pylon for the BM version was smaller and of very different shape. Hope they do a new pylon for it eventually.

- It is interesting to see the R-73 AAM missile and its launch rail (APU-73) also included as they were not used on the Foxbat.

- The two versions of the R-40 missile should have two massive rocket engine exhausts on their after side, it is shown on the kit parts as little bumps.

- Just as interesting the inclusion of the bombs and the rails for them, never on a fighter version!

- The big fuel tank was adapted for the PD version only. It was not carried on the P version (it simply did not have the attachment points for it).

- The front of the fuel tank attachment is wrong in shape, scratch building will solve this

- The fin tip pod is not an optional parts, it is a counter weight with few electronic antennas on it. It is applicable only for the newly manufactured PD version, botht he P and the PDS had a very different one!

- The pitot tube is only applicable for the early interceptor MIG-25P version. For PD/PDS you need to shave off all the small finlets on the pitot.

I know it will not affect in any way the kit we are building but there is a small gem on the kit, Kitty Hawk designers had a small joke buried deep in our kit. The part for the engine turbine blades show them to be counter rotating engines! This is a nice one, congratulation for it!!!

KH251_zps2c36460c.jpg

KH253_zps1b5b095a.jpg

KH258_zps59059db8.jpg

KH259_zpse26ea605.jpg

SKH256_zps01c01d5d.jpg

SKH255_zps2f23fb8d.jpg

SKH257_zpsb451c32f.jpg

Best regards

Gabor

Edited by ya-gabor

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Thank you for taking the time to provide not only a well illustrated criticism of the kit shortcomings and faults but also an effect set of photos to assist the modeller solve them Gabor. While initially reading through the list put me off the kit a look over the photos and re-reading your comments has reinvigorated my interest in it. Let's hope it isn't too expensive when released in the UK.

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Yes well done Gabor for once someone criticises a new release but gives us modellers the info we need to make some fairly minor corrections!

Edited by SaintsPhil

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Interesting list Gabor. Removing some of the version-specific bits you pointed out can't be hard but I can't believe they included the wrong style exhausts! I assume that's not something one can fix without spending even more money on aftermarket ones. Wonder if KH would tool the correct exhausts and provide them to those who purchased the kit.

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There actually was a 'bogeyman' MiG-25 which could do all the things we -saw- it doing, on radar. Including making a sustained Mach 2.9 reconnaissance dash at nearly 90,000ft from the Byelorussian Republic, right out to the Atlantic Coast, down to Spain and back over Italy and the Balkans to the Czech Republic.

 

It was called the Tu-121/123 Jastreb or Falcon and it was a recce drone that entered service in 1964 and was retained for the highest level strategic recce missions right through 1979.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tupolev_Tu-123_in_2002.jpg

 

The only thing that could take it out was the MIM-14 Nike Hercules with a nuclear warhead and we weren't exactly sure even then. Obviously popping nukes over NATO to stop recce flights was a stick-in-own-eye admission of desperation and so the Americans and Brits got together to actually publish a 'cut it out!' whine in one of the major French leftist magazines of the era and eventually the drone flights stopped.

 

To show you how rich the Soviet Union was in resources, each one of these expendable drones was powered by a knockoff of the MiG-25 engine and the airframes were 100% titanium. Completely.

 

It was this aircraft which caused the West to believe that the MiG-25 was all that and a bag of chips. Which is quite tricky-clever (no wheel wells, no cockpit = massive weight savings) if you can afford to throw away a couple million in titanium every flight.

 

The actual Foxbat system did have some high points of it's own however: the Peleng radio bombing system was good enough to loft-bomb Iranian oil lading terminals on Kharg Island from 60 miles away over the PG (similar to LORAN bombing with Skyspot in SEA, only 30,000ft higher and 1.4 Mach faster...), though it was only available on the RB/RBS aircraft.  This was no cheap feat as it could only be done with particular loadouts as Mach points because the original....hmmmm, M54 I think, weapons had to be replaced with M62T/hermal coated equivalents to withstand the heatsoak of sustained Mach 2.34 flight and even then, the use of double loads from Soviet MER equivalents was forbidden because the shocks cast off by the bombs dented the solid steel intake trunking!

 

The important thing here is that these are not your daddy's FABs with the cylindrical bodies and reinforcing rings plus blunt noses. Rather, they are teardrop shapes, rather similar to the U.S. M117 series but with traditional Ring Tails. I was worried that KH would get these wrong but in fact, they nailed it.

 

http://weaponsystems.net/weapon.php?weapon=HH12%20-%20FAB%20M62

 

I've heard persistent rumors that the early production MiG-25P used AA-5 Ash of the Tu-128 Fiddler and it is well known that the later PD/PDS models switched from the original RP-SA Smerch (NATO 'Fox Fire') to the later RP-25 Sapfir (modified MiG-23, NATO 'High Lark', with AWG-10/APG-59 component insertions).

 

Which is included in the kit?

 

Smerch

http://www.missiles.ru/_foto/MuzeyFAZOTRON/faz15.jpg

 

Sapfir

http://www.missiles.ru/_foto/MuzeyFAZOTRON/faz14.jpg

 

Of note: even with the R-60 coming into use, the MiG-25 is limited to about 500 knots indicated and 4G. It is _not_ a dogfighter but would rather employ the Aphids as backup weapons in an Air Sovereignity mission when formating on unruly airway zombies (RC-135s etc.).

 

The preferred loadout, even on the second generation PD however has always been the R-40 in synchronized pairs launch. The Whirlwind radar system, with it's effective 47km tracking range and 100km search was largely inept in this regard (vs. the designated 'RS-71'/XB-70) which is why it was replaced by the 55km tracking 80km search Sapphire.  With a decent LDSD radar the Acrid is actually a pretty potent pre-Phoenix LRAAM (it is also carried on the MiG-31, in combination with the R-33).

 

The exhaust petals on the later engines are rather longer than those of the original R15 in a fashion not unlike what you would expect if you look at the J79-GE-15 vs. 19 engined Phantom exhaust-

 

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Special/AirfieldVisits/Foxbats/11-FoxbatEngine.jpg.html

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/foxbat05.jpg/

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/performance/mig25/r15.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7151/6852804025_d2b86032ec_o.jpg

 

 

Having said this, I myself have never seen an interceptor variant with the truly long-petal engines of the recce aircraft.

 

Never.

 

Equally important of course is the fact that these powerplant exhausts are conjoined at the hip as it were-

 

http://www.flymig.com/aircraft/MiG-25/6.jpg

 

So here's hoping the sprue layouts are deceptive in this because if they are not, the backend of the KH Foxbat is serious wrong.

 

FWIW, I was always told that this-

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/MiG-25_Air_inlet.jpg

 

Was not a 'vortex generator' but rather a set of spray bars for dispensing the 3,000 liters of carried methanol water used to cool and compress the air for the R15 powerplants in go-fast mode.

 

One of the popular Russian nicknames of the Foxbat in fact being 'Alchohol Bowser' because the extraordinarily large amount of pure grain alchohol it carried. Shaken, not stirred?

 

Next, with regard to colors, your mileage will vary based on age and theater, Russian paints don't weather terribly well and the MiG-25 is a dirty aircraft while some aircraft seem to have two colors and others to be overall grey-

 

F.S. 36375 Light Ghost Overall

http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/mig-25.jpg

 

F.S. 26473 ADC Grey (FS36440 also works and is usually easier to apply)

http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/mikoyan/mig/25/pd/images/mig25_1.jpg

http://www.airbase.ru/hangar/russia/mikoyan/mig/25/img/mig25pd2.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-25RB,_Russia_-_Air_Force_AN2195954.jpg

 

F.S. 36173 AMC Grey over F.S. 36495 Light Grey

http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/mikoyan/mig/25/pd/images/mig25_2.jpg

 

F.S. 36320 Dark Ghost Grey over F.S. 36495 Light Grey

http://www.airforce.ru/photogallery/zinchuk/shatalovo2004/az_mig-25r_1_l.jpg

http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/mikoyan/mig/25/images/mig25pd.jpg

 

In terms of Markings... Libyan MiG-25s were among the few jets fast enough to make Sidra patrols interesting.  They couldn't dogfight the Tomcats but they could sprint fast enough to force the F-14s to have to use the AIM-54 which means (2 shots: 985lb missile + 1,000lb pallet) you have a 4,000lb weight penalty which would cripple them for followon MiG-23s.

 

OTOH, Syrian MiG-25s supposedly hold the record for the only known shoot down of IDFAF F-15s using similar tactics with the IDFAF tackling several flights of MiG-21s and then getting sniped by the stinger section of Foxbats with their very long range Acrids, at low level

 

An Iraqi MiG-25 during OSW is also known to have had something like 8 missiles shot at it by F-14B/15C/E/16C.50 aircraft, dodging them all. This atop Speicher's likely F/A-18 shootdown on the first night of Desert Storm makes the MiG-25 a shoe in for one the most notorious aircraft of the Cold War.  Even after Belenko compromised the original -25P the Foxbat was never a rollover.

 

Here are some shots of the just retired Indian MiG-25s were always some of the best kept of the Foxbats.

 

Tanks-

http://www.ainonline.com/sites/default/files/uploads/10-2012-3-mig-25r.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c81/JediKnightJega/MIG-25%20DROPTANK/tank.jpg

 

Lurid Turquoise Cockpit.

http://warfare.be/0702ey70/update/jan2003/mig25.jpg

 

MiG-25BM Conversion Sets (Revell)

 

UMM

http://umm-usa.com/onlinestore/product_info.php?products_id=3907&osCsid=avft1o7s8ps7fk3bhr7lp269p1

 

C2D

https://click2detail.com/products/7H/MiG-25BM-Conversion-Set

 

FruFru Nozzles (P/PD and RB/BM)

http://frummodel.webnode.cz/products/a48-012-vytokova-tryska-mig-25-bm-pro-stavebnici-revell-1-48-exhaust-nozzlemig-25bm-for-kit-revell-1-48-480-kc-price-in-euros-and-dollars-is-based-on-the-current-bank-rate-vice-zde-http-frummodel-webnode-cz-products-a48-014-padakove-pouzdro-para/

http://www.scalemates.com/products/product.php?id=166445

 

SAC WM Gear

http://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/details/sac/detail_sac_48104.shtml

 

AA-6 Acrid

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/AA-6-Acrid.png

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/ru_missile_acrid_01.jpg

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/ru_missile_acrid_03.jpg

http://frummodel.webnode.cz/products/a48-008-r-40td-aa-6d-acrid-d-280-kc-introductory-price-of-this-product-is-11-5-EUR-15-usd/

http://frummodel.webnode.cz/products/a48-010-r-40rd-aa-6c-acrid-c-1-48-390-kc-price-in-euros-and-dollars-according-to-the-current-bank-rate-/

Edited by Hit Or Miss

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Facinating post Hit or Miss. First I've heard of the Tu-121/123 and that has caught my attention.

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Facinating post Hit or Miss. First I've heard of the Tu-121/123 and that has caught my attention.

+1

Thanks for all of this very interesting information. Great pictures as well.

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Hit or Miss is absolutely right the MiG-25P, PD and PDS versions never had the longer engine exhaust petals!!! The ones shown in the photo from India are the ones which are applicable for the Interceptor version. The ones in the kit are only for the recon / bomber versions!

- Just a bit of history the R-15 engine originated in the Jastreb program and it was only later used on the MiG-25. Not the other way around.

- The kit provides the Smerch radar dish, an early experimental example. The only photos of it on the aircraft were stills taken from a Russian film showing the construction and systems of the first prototypes. The photos were published in Gordons book on the MiG-25 and it is from here that Kitty Hawk has taken the idea to use it. The problem is that operational aircraft had a dielectric protector cover over the dish ( a cylindrical grey device of honeycomb construction ) under the radome, so you would never see the actual radar dish as shown in the kit or the museum examples (without the cover). Same stile of cover is used on all fighter radars since then, have a look at Su-27, MiG-29 . . .

- A special grey paint had to be designed for the MiG-25 which was resistant to extreme heat, just as the white, red and blue paints used on the MiG-25. It was specially designed for the Foxbat. In early flights traditional paints were used for markings and they were burned off in flight.

Best regards

Gabor

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Ah, somehow I missed this thread! Gabor, I posted more photos of the kit contents on the other site. If there is something you need covered let me know.

Regards,

Hi Sharkmouth,

Will have a look at the photos. Put together a new list of corrections as soon as I have the time. Hope to be able to get the kit at the end of this month at Plastic Zima show in Bratislava to do a review of it for our magazine.

Best regards

Gabor

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Gabor and H-or-M,

Thanks for taking the time to make such a list. It's a great resource.

I test-fit the Fru-Fru models P/PD/PDS/PU/RU Resin Exhausts (48-013) on the new kit taped together, and her's the result:

Mig-25-1.jpg

The kit's exhaust trunking will require some sanding to fit, but the resin nozzles fit to the fuselage really well.

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Hi Mike,

Yes, this is the correct looking "short" exhaust for the interceptor version of the Foxbat. The trailing edge looks a bit oh the thick side but it is surely far better than the one offered in the kit. It could be one of the solutions for the problem with the kit exhaust.

Thanks for posting it.

Best regards

Gabor

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Gabor,

First of all let me thank you for your very informative and useful post.

And then I would like to know your opinion for what concerns the accuracy of the overall shape of this kit.

In particular, what do you think of the nose, the canopy/windshield, and the lower fuselage.

Cheers,

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And then I would like to know your opinion for what concerns the accuracy of the overall shape of this kit.

In particular, what do you think of the nose, the canopy/windshield, and the lower fuselage.

Deos Gabor have the kit? I see he was using photos from the review and from a post I made on another site.

Gabor, if you don't have the kit and want me to take photos of specific areas (should you want to answer the questions), let me know. I have been looking at Eduard's Brass In seats for the Mig-21 as a possible replacement for this kit since I think I will keep the canopy closed. Hopefully, I won't have too much trouble adapting the sharkmouth from Begemot's decal sheet since it was designed for the Revell kit.

Regards,

Edited by sharkmouth

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Dos Gabor have the kit? I see he was using photos from the review and from a post I made on another site.

Gabor, if you don't have the kit and want me to take photos of specific areas (should you want to answer the questions), let me know. I have been looking at Eduard's Brass In seats for the Mig-21 as a possible replacement for this kit since I think I will keep the canopy closed. Hopefully, I won't have too much trouble adapting the sharkmouth from Begemot's decal sheet since it was designed for the Revell kit.

Regards,

Hi Sharkmouth,

I dont have the kit, but try to get an example for review for our publication later in the month. There is no rush! It is not available around here so will try to get it at the next show I visit.

With out the kit I can only comment on the details visible on the kit. One would need to measure a lot of things on the actual kit and compare it to true dimensional data from the aircraft manual. I know that the Aviatsija i Vremja drawings are of the wrong scale so can just hope that KH did not take it as 72nd and simply magnified it to 48th! If yes then there is a scale problem!

Thanks Sharmouth for the help and support!

Best regards

Gabor

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Those fru-fru engine bits look good on there, I might consider a set for mine (although they seem to be quite pricey!)

It occurred to me that if the Mig-25 used the same 'bin lid' style of engine FOD covers as you see on, for example, the Mig-21, then it might be possible to just saw off the kit petals to the correct length and hide the untidy edge with the covers?

Strangely, I've not been able to find any decent photos of engine covers on a MIg-25 though, or for that matter any with the intake FOD covers in place - anyone got any decent shots?

Jon

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It occurred to me that if the Mig-25 used the same 'bin lid' style of engine FOD covers as you see on, for example, the Mig-21, then it might be possible to just saw off the kit petals to the correct length and hide the untidy edge with the covers?

Jon

Hi Jon,

Yes, the MiG-25 had a full set of covers similar to the earlier types of MiG's. There are lots of photos of them on the internet, one walkaround of the Indian aircraft has some excellent views of it.

To add the covers saves a lot of headache, you can hide the completely wrong intake, still you would need to build up the outer side of the intake, in the kit this is given completely wrong just as many other parts. It should be a rectangle cross section from the intake lip going backwards 2/3rds of the length. On the intake it widens as we go inside.

The same goes for the wrong engine exhausts, the covers would save a lot!

Best regards

Gabor

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It isn't my scale - nor is the MiG-25 of particular interest to me, but with this kit, it sounds like a good idea would be to build it, then cover it in cling film to represent the canvas covers draped over it - like Belenko's Foxbat at Hakodate.

That way you could 'hide' most of it under covers !!!! :coolio::whistle:

Just a thought....

Ken

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It isn't my scale - nor is the MiG-25 of particular interest to me, but with this kit, it sounds like a good idea would be to build it, then cover it in cling film to represent the canvas covers draped over it - like Belenko's Foxbat at Hakodate.

That way you could 'hide' most of it under covers !!!! :coolio::whistle:

Just a thought....

Ken

Hi Ken, Hi Julien,

The idea is excellent from both of you! :thumbsup::winkgrin::D:):)

Best regards

Gabor

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It isn't my scale - nor is the MiG-25 of particular interest to me, but with this kit, it sounds like a good idea would be to build it, then cover it in cling film to represent the canvas covers draped over it - like Belenko's Foxbat at Hakodate.

That way you could 'hide' most of it under covers !!!! :coolio::whistle:

Just a thought....

Or do the Iraqi version? :D

01.jpg

The idea is excellent from both of you! :thumbsup::winkgrin::D:):)

As someone who spent quite a bit of money and effort to obtain the kit quickly, I fail to see the humor. Instead, I feel the fool by not only having a kit that people I respect are suggesting I hide, but having actually photographed the kit sprues and posting the images online. I did this to find how I can better my model, not hide it. I'm a fairly recent return to Britmodeller and had been following this thread but, it is not doing me any good. I've learned my lesson and will not post images of anything new I get but just return to lurking.

Regards,

Edited by sharkmouth

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Hey, guys:

New member, and I've been lurking on this thread for a while. Some really great info here, but now after reading about all the problems with the kit, I might have to throw it away. Too bad, since I paid US $80 for it.

Oh, well, guess I got "Song-ed" too. :weep:

PB

Edited by Porkbits

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Well if you want to chuck it away aim it in this direction ;) I'm sure it'll be easier to create an accurate replica from the Xxxxx kit than the Revell one.

Edited by Greg B
Swearing removed

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