Test Graham Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Most of the squadrons had a Harvard or two for liaison duties. They seem to have been Yellow overall with the SAC roundels. Obviously more photos of the type would help, but second-line aircraft are always poorly covered in comparison with the fighters. I don't have any specific questions, just that I expect to see a wider variety of old types when in training, and the issue of new airframes when going up to the frontline. It would be interesting to know if 11 Sq fitted that template or not. "New" may not always be new-build machines but could be older ones back from overhaul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winenut Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Hey Shoey........this thread is amazing. I can't believe the connections and stories. Just incredible. Been crazy busy at work but catch up soon.....just trying to finish the 109E so I can get onto Papa's Hurri Cheers Nut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 A correction to my earlier post. The pilot in question went from Wellingtons to Hurricanes not the other way around and it was via a Blenheim conversion course and initial posting to 11 Sqn when it flew the Blenheim before converting to Hurricanes. He speculates that it was due to a surplus of Wellington pilots, apparently always flown with two in the FE. He mentions in his long and detailed letter specifically about the Tamu incident that the account written by Squadron Leader Courtney on Page 57 of Norman Franks' book is "not strictly accurate" but that the author was unable to contact him before publication. He survived a 15 day trek to regain the Allied lines but because his flying helmet with his name, rank and service number had been left hung over the joystick of the abandoned Hurricane he was posted to the Middle East for his own safety (to avoid possible recriminations if he was subsequently captured by the Japanese). I'll pass the details on although sadly I do not know if this gallant gentleman is still alive. Re the Harvard - a single aircraft was also briefly used by 20 Sqn for night harassment of Japanese positions, dropping empty soda bottles in "jitter" sorties. The extent of the contribution of the RAF Hurricane squadrons in Burma and the conduct of their ground attack operations cannot be overstated and is the subject of much admiration, not just from the Allied ground forces but also those Japanese who were on the receiving end and who survived that greatest land defeat of the Imperial Japanese Army. Some of them complained bitterly at the lack of similar support from their own airmen. Although from an earlier period and during the Japanese invasion of Malaya, ground attacking Hurricanes (IIB) were described thus:- "But the Hurricanes flying low over the rubber forest were a serious challenge. Their intrepid pilots continually machine-gunned our roads, shooting up our motor transport and blocking traffic, defects which could not be remedied by orders or scoldings from our Army Headquarters. Until then our mobile corps had been advancing on the paved roads in broad daylight taking no precautions against enemy air raids. While the Hurricanes were flying even single cars moved off the road into the cover of the jungle, and all convoys had to move off the road and get out of sight at the first alarm." The armament of the Hurricane in contrast to their own fighters impressed the Japanese and one ex-64th Sentai pilot told me that although he was confident that if it was seen first he could always out-fly the Hurricane in the Hayabusa, the cannon armament of the IIc was considered "very dangerous" and treated with healthy respect. At Palembang the 64th Sentai acquired three captured Hurricanes which they intended to use for attacking airfields, an initiative proposed by their commander Tateo Kato. One stalled on take-off during flight testing, killing the pilot, but the others were flown up to Thailand with a heavy escort of Hayabusa where another was destroyed in an AVG strafing raid. The aircraft were very clearly marked with the Japanese Hinomaru and 64th insignia because they thought it would be dishonourable to use deception (in some fanciful accounts planned "werewolf" operations using Hurricanes in RAF markings have been asserted). I have some photographs of the captured Hurricanes at Palembang and they confirm the Japanese Hinomaru and unit "arrow" emblem were indeed painted on the aircraft Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Reverting to the question of FE colour schemes this image shows trop Hurricanes being uncrated in West Africa for onward staging to the Gulf. Note that whilst the upper surfaces appear "dark" and not typical of the appearance of desert colours the undersurfaces of the Hurricane in the foreground (and the wing framework) are noticeably lighter and brighter than the under surfaces of the other three - Sky/Sky Blue (43%/52% reflectivity) vs Azure (30%)? The camouflage pattern also appears to be reversed on this aircraft and the same as three of the aircraft in the background also with lighter under surfaces, whilst the second one back appears to have the reverse pattern and slightly darker undersurfaces. As the aircraft are relatively aligned under the same illumination I do not think this difference is just a trick of light. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Interesting pic, Nick. Also note that the wing internal structure is a different shade, the nearest aircraft being much lighter in tone and the next in line being much darker. Dunno what, if anything, that signifies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Interesting pic, Nick. Also note that the wing internal structure is a different shade, the nearest aircraft being much lighter in tone and the next in line being much darker. Dunno what, if anything, that signifies. Nick did mention the wingframe being lighter in his post. most likely, during the switch from aluminium painted framework to interior grey green. There is a colour photo of a desert camo Hurricane on the production line, where you can see the switch to IGG has happened. here - http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234909550-desert-hurricane-wheel-wells/#entry923140 note link to 'untouched since 1943' Finnish Hurricane, where the framework and the rest of the insides are painted aluminium http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/61201-gloster-hurricane-cockpit-colour/#entry669255 photos of recovered Russian Hurricanes, which are IIB's also show aluminium painted internals. There is a possibility this was also dependant on who built the planes, Gloster or Hawker, as well as when they were built. Certainly a lot of Typhoons had aluminium internal framework and wheel wells too. HTH T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallisti Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 (edited) It signifies that the right side of the pic is slightly more overexposed which is lightening the tones. Edited December 2, 2013 by Kallisti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Reverting to the question of FE colour schemes this image shows trop Hurricanes being uncrated in West Africa for onward staging to the Gulf. Note that whilst the upper surfaces appear "dark" and not typical of the appearance of desert colours the undersurfaces of the Hurricane in the foreground (and the wing framework) are noticeably lighter and brighter than the under surfaces of the other three - Sky/Sky Blue (43%/52% reflectivity) vs Azure (30%)? The camouflage pattern also appears to be reversed on this aircraft and the same as three of the aircraft in the background also with lighter under surfaces, whilst the second one back appears to have the reverse pattern and slightly darker undersurfaces. As the aircraft are relatively aligned under the same illumination I do not think this difference is just a trick of light. Nick It signifies that the right side of the pic is slightly more overexposed which is lightening the tones. I suggest a closer examination of the background, note that the concrete hardstading is an even tone, as are the packing crates the planes are being rolled out of, and the dark tarpaulins are the same tone one the front 3 planes. Some of the planes in background also have similar light toned undersides, as Nick pointed out. So, no, I don't think the right side is overexposed. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallisti Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Look at the tops of the packing crate, the grass in the background and the overall picture - the right edge is significantly lighter overall than the rest of the photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 There is a gradient, but not a sudden shift. Hurricanes 7 and 8 (from the front) also have light undersides. However, all eight have the same camouflage pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winenut Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I'm researching this particular build to get the colours and markings correct. I want to do the best representation I can of Mr Gibson's "Buccaneer" Hurri. I anyone can add colour/markings/ weathering/detail in any way to this thread for the build I would be delighted. Mr Gibson is my next door neighbours grandfather and I would be delighted to build his aircraft and do it with as much justice as I can.' Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoey Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 Thanks winenut! Probably the only info we do not have that much info about at this stage is how the nose art of the "Buccanneer" would have actually looked. Are there any kind folk out there that are a wiz in converting photo images into vector graphics? If we have a digital image then we can play around with different colour combinations..... Bring forth the suggestions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoey Posted March 5, 2014 Author Share Posted March 5, 2014 Thanks for the continued and fascinating first hand accounts. I had the privilege of corresponding with the Hurricane pilot who escaped and who sent me a detailed description of that incident. He did not actually see the others killed but had gone in a different direction from the other two to find help and heard the voices and shots. A real quirk of fate. He later served on Wellingtons in the same theatre and also described an encounter with a Japanese night fighter. I'll dig out his letters and pass on the details to you. Nick Hi nick, Did you ever manage to dig up the correspondence you had with Clements? My grandfather would be really interested if you could forward a copy. I have got Callie from Callie graphics to recreate the artwork and the decals and nomenclature for the hurricane, so will post a photo of that soon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Yes, I did! I have it to hand to scan but got distracted by other projects/demands. It is even more interesting than I recalled - covering the incident in two letters. And my comment above is incorrect - he went to Hurricanes from Wellingtons not the other way round! Can you drop me a pm with your email address or directly to mine if you have that and I'll aim to get it done this weekend. Cheers Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoey Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 If anyone is interested in this topic, follow the following link http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234956531-mkiic-buccaneer-hurricane-11-squadron-seac-burma/ My neighbour, winenut, is doing a 1/72 scale Buccanneer and I am revamping my 1: 7.5 RC version. Should be interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlanceHR Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 (edited) I have got Callie from Callie graphics to recreate the artwork and the decals and nomenclature for the hurricane, so will post a photo of that soon. Shoey, which scale? 1/72 or bigger? Vedran Edited March 8, 2014 by dragonlanceHR 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoey Posted March 9, 2014 Author Share Posted March 9, 2014 The graphics are for my roughly 1:7 scale hurricane. They are vinyl cut graphics which are prob not suitable for plastic models. They come on a backing piece which once removed after the graphics stuck down leaves just the decal as the vinyl is cut. Looks like it is painted on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoey Posted March 9, 2014 Author Share Posted March 9, 2014 A Big thank you to Nick Millman for kindly sending me the correspondence he had with Mr Clement who was the Hurri pilot that escaped from the Japanese after he and 2 of his squadron landed at the then Japanese occupied Tamu strip. The two other pilots unfortunately were not so lucky. My grandfather was one of two pilots ordered to straf the 3 planes the next day so they would not fall into enemy hands. Amazing that 70 years down the track two personal stories from across the globe can be put together! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoey Posted March 14, 2014 Author Share Posted March 14, 2014 Ok, needing some help with the Cannon for my grandfathers plane. I believe the use of 4 Hispano 20mm cannon was common on the IIc's, but i was wondering if there were any variations of the Hispano, and which one would have been on his plane. I have some photos of the cannon - one photo in particular shows he has just one cannon on each wing (?different cannon and calibre, or just one has been removed??) Any detailed photos of his cannon would be appreciated as im trying to reconstruct a 1:7 scale version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Removal of one pair of cannon was done for two reasons. Firstly, to enable the fitting of a forward-facing camera in one of the fairings. This was (obviously) most common in the FR units. The other reason would be because the Hispano was heavy, which not only affected its climb and acceleration but also its agility in roll. This was why the Spitfire universal wing, as on the Mk.Vc and the IX, although designed to take four cannon, was only very rarely seen with them. This reason would be more applicable to the Hurricane fighter units, but was not universal and it's unclear just how commonly this was done. The firepower of four cannon was perhaps also seen as overkill against Japanese fighters: it has sometimes been said that the MK.IIC were initially restricted to the defence of Calcutta rather than tangling with the Oscars over the Arakan, but this does not seem to be true - at least not absolutely. I've recently seen it said that 28 Sq was denied permission to remove a pair of cannon. Later in the war the enemy fighter threat was greatly reduced and the four cannon was considered highly effective in the fighter-bomber role, which is where the majority of the Hurricanes were employed. The same cannon were used on all Mk.IIc Hurricanes. Visible differences in Hispanos include the choice of round section or square section springs, and the position of the springs along the barrel. I don't know any other difference, nor the whys and wherefores of the spring section changes. I think the position of the springs was an early change and suspect all SEAC Hispanos will be of similar appearance - a survey of photos will find any with the springs in a different position. I'm sorry this cannot be a completely definitive answer, but (other than the comment on FR units) I don't believe I've ever seen one such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) - Edited March 14, 2014 by Randall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) Pretty much - I used a faded mix of the standard Dark Earth and RAF Dark green to represent the sun bleaching effect. I've just checked my references and the book "The Air Battle of Imphal" by Norman Franks does mention your Grandfather by name, describing an incident on 25th April 1944 where he and Flt Lt CGH Ditmas escorted a Sqn Ldr R Lane from the Aberdeen airstrip back to Imphal, but during the flight R Lane's Hurricane developed a glycol leak and he force-landed just east of the Chindwin River. He survived the landing but was captured by the Japanese and was killed the following day. Your Grandfather and the other pilot searched for the downed aircraft until lack of fuel forced them to return to Imphal. Hello. Just the other day my cousin informed me about this forum. Reading these posts and seeing the pictures was absolutely amazing. My Grandfather, Charles Henry Anderson D.F.C. was an R.C.A.F. pilot in WWII and flew Hurricane IIc’s with 11 Squadron R.A.F. from September 1943 to December 1944. He and Ronald Harry Gibson D.F.C., who I believe flew his first sortie with 11 Squadron on March 20th 1944, flew a number of sorties together. March 20th….(what a hell of a time to begin ops in that area)….Just when Japanese attack on Imphal from all sides was imminent and emergency “Defensive” boxes were being set up in preparation for the expected attack because the Japanese were closing in rapidly. By March 25th the defensive box number 11 Squadron were apart of had an approximate strength of 800. At the time XI Squadron was operating from Tulihal Aerodrome about 10-15 km south-south-west of Imphal main. Regarding Squadron Leader Lane’s forced landing on April 25th 1944; I have read the ORB’s for that date in the past and have wondered what ever happened to him. I have also wondered what Hurricane IIb Squadron he was with. The Squadron Leader for 11th at the time was Squadron Leader D.J.T. Sharp, he took over from Squadron Leader S.C. Norris on March 12th. It was good to read Kallisti’s quote from Norman Frank’s book "The Air Battle of Imphal”, commenting on the fate of Squadron Leader Lane. On April 25th his aircraft was located, strafed, and left in flames; but after a widespread search there was still no sign of Squadron Leader Lane. Although obviously I hoped he had lived, I now know that he didn’t. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ April 25th 1944 - (ORB 540) Two aircraft detailed to escort one x Hurricane IIB – pilot- SQUADRON LEADER LANE back from ABERDEEN. Aircraft were airborne IMPHAL 15:00 hours and over ABERDEEN aircraft circled from 16:00-16:20 hours and were told to land as other aircraft was not ready. Landed at ABERDEEN 16:25 hours and took-off again 16:55 hours. SQUADRON LEADER LANE formed up as No. 3 of the section. Approximately 15 miles East of the CHINDWIN, SQUADRON LEADER LANE called up to say that his radiator temperature was going up. It was found that the IIB had a glycol leak and SQUADRON LEADER LANE said he was going to force-land in the paddy. The escort followed him down to 5,000 feet. When he was 1,000 feet below, they lost sight of him as he had entered a thick layer of smoke haze. The section continued to follow his general direction of descent and caught a further glimpse of him about a mile away – then he was once more obscured by the haze. The last position, the section saw him was approximately 4 miles S.E. of NAWNGSANKYIN. The section searched for ¾ hour but could not find trace of S/L. LANE or his aircraft. (ORB 541) Two aircraft detailed to escort Hurricane IIB, piloted by S/L Lane, from ABERDEEN. Aircraft landed at ABERDEEN 16:20 hours and took off again at 16:55 hours. At about 15 miles east of the Chindwin S/Ldr Lane made a forced landing owing to glycol leak. The pilots lost sight of his aircraft due to thick layer of smoke haze. The last position he was seen was at approximately 4 miles S.E. of NAWNGSANKYIN. Patrols search the area but no trace was found of the missing plane. Weather :- Very thick haze up to 4,000 ft., particularly in Homalin area. Edited March 14, 2014 by Randall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoey Posted March 14, 2014 Author Share Posted March 14, 2014 Randall, how amazing! Your grandfather must have been the other pilot that straffed the 3 hurri's at Tamu that has been discussed here. Please feel free to post any photos or info from your grandfather. Here is a photo that papa took of the other 11 squadron pilots (prob of B flight) so see if you can pick out your grandfather... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 This photo of an allegedly 11 Sqn. Hurricane has been a mystery for many years. The shield has the Norwegian flag colour, with the texts seems to be "Bretsen" above and "Noroé" beneath. Its pilot (not the one who is posing on the photo) was Ronald Erling Rørvik, who had a Norwegian father and French (Brittany) mother. Any information on the aricraft and its markings - including serial number and code letter - would be most welcome. Nils This photo of an allegedly 11 Sqn. Hurricane has been a mystery for many years. The shield has the Norwegian flag colour, with the texts seems to be "Bretsen" above and "Noroé" beneath. Its pilot (not the one who is posing on the photo) was Ronald Erling Rørvik, who had a Norwegian father and French (Brittany) mother. Any information on the aricraft and its markings - including serial number and code letter - would be most welcome. Nils This is a photograph of George Butler from 11 Squadron. Squadron Leader G.A. BUTLER D.F.C. arrived in Tamu, Burma on December 27th 1944 to take over command of No.XI Squadron. The following Imperial War Museum link will take you to an audio interview with George Butler. http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80012075 At 2 minutes and 20 seconds he begins to talk about the Norwegian Flag on his Hurricane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoey Posted March 24, 2014 Author Share Posted March 24, 2014 Mystery of the Buccaneer nearly solved, but more questions arise!! Help needed!! Upon emailing Randall who stated that his grandad, Charles "Andy" Anderson flew with my grandfather in 11 squadron, he was kind enough to send me through a document he has been working on about 11 squadron at that time. I was surprised that he had a photo of the "Buccaneer" nose art. Even more surprised when the caption read something like "the personal artwork on Charles Anderson's Hurricane" Randall remembers his grandad telling him about how an artist painted it for him, and the meaning behind it came from the fact that he grew up in British Honduras where pirates where common, and the shield he has his foot up on is the British Honduras coat of arms. This solves a mystery to me as i had no idea where the Buccaneer came from or what was on the shield. As you can see this is clearly what is on it... As long as i can remember though, my grandfather always told me about his plane having a "Buccaneer" painted on it, and in his service diary it mentions when he got his new plane "we had the Buccaneer panel changed to the new kite". There is also the following photo which shows him in the plane with the same nose art... So, i'm assuming that the same artist did not paint two buccaneers, and that the plane that my grandfather called his own, and the plane that Charles Anderson called his own where one and the same?? Can anybody fill in the gaps on what was the normal way of allocating planes, and would have two pilots been given one specific plane to share, and they flew different sorties? I do know that both my grandfather and Charles Anderson where on "B flight" in 11 squadron. Any insight into this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now