11 squadron RAF SEAC Hurricane in Burma

[Steven]

Hi Graham, according to my Great Uncles Flight Log he flew both MkIIc and IIb while he flew for 11 Squadron so it could be a IIb..

[Test Graham]

Was there a predominance of one or the other? And did that differ between training and operations? It can be imagined that a unit used to the cannon might not want to fly operations with only the machine guns. However, at this stage it was the bombs that mattered most, and either could carry those.

Another interesting point is that it is often said that the four outer guns were removed from the Mk.IIb to save weight and improve the agility, and this was also true about the outer cannon on the Mk.IIc. Is there any hint at either of these in his log (I would guess not) or in the photos?

[Steven]

This is another picture from his collection it has the inner cannons removed.

Sorry I dont know anything about this photo.

[Test Graham]

This one appears to have markings fore and aft of the fuselage roundel, so is either carrying full unit codes or additional markings. The forward one is shaped like the top of a number rather than a letter, which might suggest training but in that case why the tanks? If it has just been ferried in that might explain the number but perhaps not the missing cannons. It is great to see these photos, given the rarity of such things, but perhaps because of that they can raise as many questions as answers. You mean the inner cannons are retained. There's a patch where the stub of the outer one has been removed. I think that's a gun camera just inboard of the cannon.

[Steven]

Thanks for the info yes your right about the cannons!!!

Regards Steve

[shoey]

I remember my grandfather telling me the hurricane he flew could have 4 20mm cannon or 2 40 mm cannon interchanged. I'll go see him today and see what he can remember!

[Kallisti]

5 Sqn operated IIc and IId at the same time.

[Seahawk]

The 2-gun fit (outer cannon removed) is also visible in the first picture on post 9. The other photos in the same post clearly show a 4-gun fit, so either two guns were removed (or reinstated) later or there were two airicraft with the same nose-art (am I imagining that there is less white/light colour in the first rendition?)

[shoey]

The 2-gun fit (outer cannon removed) is also visible in the first picture on post 9. The other photos in the same post clearly show a 4-gun fit, so either two guns were removed (or reinstated) later or there were two airicraft with the same nose-art (am I imagining that there is less white/light colour in the first rendition?)

That is my grandfathers plane. As for the nose art, it is painted on a removable panel which was put on whichever plane he was flying at the time. As has been posted previously, most of his sorties were in LD589 until it was shot down when one of his mates was in it (he would have had his own nose art on the plane at the time). I believe all the planes in XI squadron were in fact IIc's and configuration was either 4 20mm or 2 40mm cannon. After his original plane was shot down he used some 10 or so other planes that were available.

If people are interested I can quote some of his memoirs that I have in relation to any of the discussion we are having. By the way, I hope people continue to contribute as it is a theatre of war that was crucial to the Allies victory but little is talked or known about it. I will get his war diary and log book out and start reading through so I can add excerpts not from a historians or official point of view but from someone who was in the thick of it.

[Seahawk]

As for the nose art, it is painted on a removable panel which was put on whichever plane he was flying at the time.

So one or the other aircraft in the photos may not be LD859?

I for one would love to hear more from his personal records and reminiscences. The above is the sort of thing you only get from someone who was there - and can throw spanners in works for internet pontificaters! How much useful info like that has been thrown away as worthless during house clearances?

Edited November 26, 2013 by Seahawk

[shoey]

So one or the other aircraft in the photos may not be LD859?

I for one would love to hear more from his personal records and reminiscences. The above is the sort of thing you only get from someone who was there - and can throw spanners in works for internet pontificaters! How much useful info like that has been thrown away as worthless during house clearances?

Correct, may not be LD859! Ok, I'll have a look through his memoirs about when he lost his beloved plane and quote his thoughts. More to come then ...

[Test Graham]

A couple of points to look for in his logbook.

1. Mix of variants in training/work-up as opposed to combat?

2. Re-equipment with new airframes before going into combat?

[shoey]

Ok,here is a description of some dive bombing techniques used when there was low cloud cover... scary stuff if you ask me..

Excerpt from the diary of R.H.Gibson DFC

We had developed a technique however in mountain flying, where because we used no dive brakes and had the additional manoeuvrability to attack from the clouds, we actually set course under the cloud base for the target, then at about 100 yards away, pulled vertically up into the clouds for the additional height, then straightened back on course in the cloud, and after an estimated 100 yards (I used a count method) then winged over and came through the cloud vertically to the cloud base, immediately adjusting direction and trajectory to look into the top of the gun pit before firing. We were aided here by the Japs felling a lot of trees to make way for the extra gun pits, and this enabled us to hold our fire for a further 25 – 30 feet, pulling out below the tree tops and then climbing through the gaps where the trees had been. The CO had picked six flight section leaders for this trip, leaving the number 2^s at home, and the army were ecstatic, as in the two sorties we made 10 runs each, taking out 12 of the 14 gun posts, and also made runs at the troops on the other side of the hill where their forward infantry had made all their counter-attacks. We were credited with the 12 gun posts plus 6 officers and 680 army dead. If only it had happened 6 days earlier. On this strike we had not lost a plane, just four damaged and had the rare distinction of each of the six of us given a personal commendation by the army commanders which was extremely rare. It was one of our two best strikes in the heaviest non-stop rain that I had experienced. Incidentally, the army this time attacked the two peaks simultaneously, but received no fire and took the positions with only a handful of Japs fighting to the finish. The rest had fled.

[shoey]

A couple of points to look for in his logbook.

1. Mix of variants in training/work-up as opposed to combat?

2. Re-equipment with new airframes before going into combat?

Will do Graham. I'll let you know what I find

[shoey]

Ok, last one for the night. This one is a cracker....

Sortie # 104, July 1944

This was an anti-flak strafe of heavy artillery prior to 42 squadron attacking 3 bridges on the Manipur river. Six of us came in from different directions to help to confuse the gunners, but I collected a stream of medium to light ack-ack, and suddenly saw parts of my propellers going past my right side of the flying canopy. I immediately applied full left rudder to skid away from the blast, and as he had not immediately followed me with his gun, I kicked back straight, and went straight for the gun pit. I saw him start to swing his gun around as he realised his mistake, but my first burst from only 100 yards took him backwards, and I saw his platform collapse. As I pulled out there was a mighty roar below me , and I felt an uplift of some kind, but I was concentrating only on gaining height as I didn’t know how much height of my props were left. I had plenty of speed following my dive and had the throttle forward to the emergency gate. I turned eighty degrees left in the cloud, as my dive was towards the mountain, and as my dive speed dropped, everything seemed alright except for the loss of revolutions at normal throttle setting, and we made the height of the mountain ok, and then came back to semi-emergency revs. On landing, I learned that the blast I had heard, was when apparently in holding my fire, an explosive cannon or two must have penetrated the collapsed platform and hit the ammunition supply train under the platform for the whole lot went up, taking out all three guns in the cluster. I wonder whether that ammunition train extended right across the line , as the three guns were in line, and separated only by two dividing walls of the usual teak logs. Later we got a call from the CO of 42 squadron thanking us for taking out the guns which had enabled them to come in low and skip bomb (torpedo) the bridges, wrecking two, and severely damaging the third. Both squadrons

received rhubarbs. All my props had been hit – one now measured 18 ½ inches, one at 17 ½ , and the one that had got us out of trouble was now 27 ¾ inches. I think the normal for the Hurry was either 41 or 43 inches. The “Buccaneer” once again didn’t rouse on me for abusing her. She just brought me home again, and she got a brand new propeller. Definitely my worst, and along with Nungshigum, also my best op for both the army and myself. Butch O’Donnell said to me, “hell Gib, you must have got real mad, I thought you were going to join him in the gun-pit – that’s adrenalin!”

[Edgar]

This photo of an allegedly 11 Sqn. Hurricane has been a mystery for many years. The shield has the Norwegian flag colour, with the texts seems to be "Bretsen" above and "Noroé" beneath. Its pilot (not the one who is posing on the photo) was Ronald Erling Rørvik, who had a Norwegian father and French (Brittany) mother.

Any information on the aricraft and its markings - including serial number and code letter - would be most welcome.

I checked the ORB, again, yesterday, but there was no sign of a "Rørvik" (or any similar spelling) anywhere.

This is where I'll need you to do some digging, though, please. In a book ("Viking Spitfire") about another Norwegian pilot, Finn Thorsager, he recounts how, to avoid any repercussions against families "back home," they were all given new identities/names, during their RAF service. If (as seems likely) your man went through the same process, it could explain why you've had no luck in tracing him.

Edgar

[georgeusa]

Thank you for taking the time to post your grandfather's diary entries. He is lucky to have a grandson so interested in his service experiences and you are there to listen when he is ready to talk about them. It has a catharsis effect that is beneficial to both you and him. Take care of him, and thank you for doing so.

[Vingtor]

Thanks for taking the effort of checking the ORB!

Having studied the Norwegian squadrons in the RAF, I cannot say it was common to take new names or identities. Most of them also flew in Norwegian uniforms; just a few wore RAF uniforms to conceal their Norwegian origin. Regarding Rørvik (if that was his name), he was actually South African with a Norwegian father, and in Burma he was fighting the Japanese, not the Germans that were occupying Norway.

This aircraft remains a mystery ...

Nils

[dragonlanceHR]

Fascinating topic and photos, and cracking story.

Now I (we) need an enterprising soul who will sell me the decals for those two Hurricanes. 1/48 scale.

Vedran

[tonyot]

Thank you for posting your Grandfather`s recollections,.....amazing stuff and a real eye opener, they really were a very special generation,

Cheers

Tony

[shoey]

Sounds like people are enjoying the "real life stories" of the topic of SEAC hurricanes in Burma, so I will add a few more for people to read. Again, taken from the memoirs of my grandfather warrant officer R.H.Gibson DFC.......

Tamu Strip – Kabaw Valley, March 1944

On March 23^rd, 1944, before the monsoon season opened, we had two days of cyclonic storms with non-stop rains. On 23^rd, three 113 squadron Hurry’s were unsuccessful in piercing the clouds of the Chin Hills, and practically out of petrol, landed at Tamu in the Kabaw valley, unaware that the Japs had retaken this part of the valley. They taxied in to the dispersal area at the end of the strip , and were promptly taken prisoner. As was the Japs custom, all three were shot although my diary shows, we held hope that one had escaped. On the following day (24^th) we also got caught in not being able to land, as all strips had not been completed for all weather landing for the coming monsoon season. We tried four different strips in the valley, and with petrol getting low, left for an emergency strip out of the valley, at Pathakandi. The army still held this section, and I landed with under 10 gallons of fuel, and slept on the mess room table. It was in this storm that General Wingate went down.

On 26^th March, the weather cleared, and we did a “long range tank” (LRT’s) rhubarb down the Irrawaddy, visiting 4 enemy airstrips without success but picking up vital camouflaged M.T. etc. We were 50 miles only from China. The CO directed me and my No.2 P/O Anderson to detour and destroy the three 113 squadron Hurry’s. We did two runs up and down the valley, leaving them flaming. Over seven months later in theJapaneseretreat, we occupied Tamu, and the three Hurry skeletons were still there, so I took the following photo.

Photo’s of our damaged planes were strictly taboo normally, but the CO said that these were hardly in that category!

Later the full story as contained in the Battle of Imphal by historian writer Norman Franks in his interviews with ex RAF pilots in Britain and published only in 1985 was revealed. The grape-vine was slightly incorrect as one of the pilots did make a miraculous escape, and was not originally captured as reported.

I was especially pleased at this, as I realised that by pure luck, as I came out of the cloud to tree top level, Clement saw me from the monsoon drain, heard me and my no. 2 P/O Anderson strafing the Hurricanes, and would then be watching intently, as he was completely lost, and would be hoping to see our vertical climb and which way I broke into the clouds in commencing the 5,000 ft climb back towards home over the Chin Hills. As it was, I always broke before the cloud base to help my no. 2 follow and set course for home. Unwittingly then, I had shown him the way to go. He just now had to do the hard part, knowing he had to attack the mountains on the left.

[Nick Millman]

Thanks for the continued and fascinating first hand accounts.

I had the privilege of corresponding with the Hurricane pilot who escaped and who sent me a detailed description of that incident. He did not actually see the others killed but had gone in a different direction from the other two to find help and heard the voices and shots. A real quirk of fate. He later served on Wellingtons in the same theatre and also described an encounter with a Japanese night fighter. I'll dig out his letters and pass on the details to you.

Nick

[shoey]

Thanks for the continued and fascinating first hand accounts.

I had the privilege of corresponding with the Hurricane pilot who escaped and who sent me a detailed description of that incident. He did not actually see the others killed but had gone in a different direction from the other two to find help and heard the voices and shots. A real quirk of fate. He later served on Wellingtons in the same theatre and also described an encounter with a Japanese night fighter. I'll dig out his letters and pass on the details to you.

Nick

That would be absolutely amazing Nick if you could dig up those letters. I have kept Papa updated on what is going on in this forum and he is amazed, but this is quite unbelievable that you have spoken to the pilot that escaped! I remember even as a youngster him telling me about that sortie and showing me the photos of the burned out hurricanes. Here is the excerpt from "The air battle of Imphal by Norman Franks" about what happened...

Flying officers Illman and Herbert and Flight Sergeant Clement became separated in low cloud and rain from the leading aircraft on the way back and lost themselves. When they were very short of fuel, they saw an airstrip and thinking it was one of ours, landed there. Unfortunately the airstrip – Tamu – was held by the Japanese. Illman and Herbert went off to seek assistance, leaving Clement to look after the aircraft. Soon, after they left, Clement heard shots and guessed they must have been fired on by Japanese. He promptly hid in a nearby monsoon drain and his quick thinking almost certainly saved his life, since a Japanese party arrived at the aircraft shortly afterwards and began to search for the third pilot. Clement had to stay hidden until a flight of Hurricanes appeared and strafed the three aircraft on the ground so they could not be used by the Japanese. He then made his escape and spent the next two weeks walking back to the Imphal Valley. Not only did this involve the usual problem of survival in very difficult jungle terrain, but also evading the Japanese patrols which were searching for him day and night. He finally walked into Patel, on 7^th April – a first class effort!

Squadron Leader R.N.H. Courtney, OC 113 Squadron

From this account it mentions that Clements hid in the monsoon drain until the 2 hurri's from 11 squadron straffed the 3 planes and then made his escape, so it seems plausible that Clements did follow the direction of Papa's plane over the hills to safe territory - I'm not entirely sure he knows the full story as in his war diary it is assumed that all 3 pilots were shot, and not until he read the book in the 1980's did he realize that one of them had escaped.....so to get the full story from Flight sergent Clement's account would be absolutely fantastic!! Unbelievable...

[shoey]

One thing that my grandfather was always very proud of was being a flight section leader, which meant you were qualified as a "monsoon pilot" Apparently the Japs did not fly in the Monsoon season (correct me if i'm wrong) as they deemed it too risky. Here is an excerpt which talks about the treacherous conditions the allies were expected to fly in..... more exerpts from the memoirs of w/o R.H.Gibson DFC.....

The B25 visiting here photo taken from "The air battle of Imphal")was General Wingate’s ill-fated Mitchell Bomber which was lost after crashing in the storm in the Chin Hills on March 24^th 1944 (as per my diary). All were killed. They were on their way to “Aberdeen” via Lalaghat, Wingate’s headquarters. Subsequent details of the sad and surprise, to us, conclusion of his mission when I became involved, are as shown under sortie #39 (April) on page 38. I do not know whether the war crime enquiry was ever held.

As the format of these Cumulo-nimbus storms was much the same, I have not elaborated on the published items, but following Wingate’s down-draft crash into the mountain after having actually crossed the ridge, I had taken the precaution of climbing to 6,800 feet to allow 1,000 feet above the 5,800 foot ridge of the mountain as a “cushion” against such an eventuality. We closed ranks when we hit the cumulo, and I had all wing navigation lights on in the blinding rain. Mike Veitch, flying to my right and slightly behind as yellow 2, said I was first to go. I of course could see nothing behind me as I was concentrating solely on navigating through the rain, and of course radio communication was impossible due to the static. Mike said I simply disappeared upward like a rocket, and was gone. With the altimeter spinning to try to catch up, I stopped suddenly at just over 8,100 feet. I immediately proceeded down, with both hands on the stick with absolutely no control. I was not even aware of the bruises on my shoulders from the Sutton harness straps at the violent change of direction. I remember then the sudden ejection to the right, and remember also the Buccaneer coming out of the black wall in a half roll position, and the altimeter still confused still spinning but showing 7,200 feet. It seems that I had gone up approximately 1,300 feet and come down some 900 feet. A net gain of 400 feet. Immediately called up all ‘bodkin’ aircraft, “Is anyone receiving me, over.” There was only one ‘static’ reply. It was Mike, and he was just coming out on course at 4,000 feet. He later stated that they continued, had a brief lull, but then were in it again, and he was the next to go, but straight down. He kept thinking of our 1,000 foot cushion, but had given up as he continued down. That slight break, plus maybe the 1,000 foot had enabled him to cross the ridge. His last recollection of the other three was of Parkinson now leading, then they were gone as he started down. Whether the 1000 foot cushion had saved him turned sour, for he was subsequently killed on November 4^th, ironically in my borrowed ‘Buccaneer’ on a night strike (refer to page 23).

Our three pilots, Parkinson, Sands and Richardson, or any of their planes, were never located.

[shoey]

A couple of points to look for in his logbook.

1. Mix of variants in training/work-up as opposed to combat?

2. Re-equipment with new airframes before going into combat?

Graham, I have my grandfather's log book and war diary now, so I have scanned a typical page for you to have a look at...

As you can see, it gives us info that we already know, that the Hurri was a IIc, and it details the aircraft number. Also a brief description of the sortie and how many hours it took. No apparent information on type of armourment used. It is apparent though that they shared the planes around a lot. Also surprised that he flew a twin seater Harvard in Burma as well - another model I will have to make now!! Let me know if you want me to look up anything specific