11 squadron RAF SEAC Hurricane in Burma

[Edgar]

In Operations Record Books, it's quite common to find different pilots flying the same aircraft, even on the same day.

Edgar

Edited March 24, 2014 by Edgar

[shoey]

Ok, need some advice about colours for the "buccaneer". Ive decided to go with the green and brown top as this seems to be the concensus rather than green and grey. For the bottom, i'm quite keen to go for Nick Millman's suggestion and go sky blue on the bottom rather than medium grey. I've done a bit of research, and it seems that there is no model paint which resembles sky blue very well... can anyone suggest some mixes of model paint that they have used with good effect? If not i will go for the standard MSG underneath. Is there a standard "best" match for either Testors or Humbrol enamels to match the green and brown for the top as well as the MSG underneath? I appreciate everyones help as i want to get this plane as scale as possible!

Cheers

[Test Graham]

Foe Sky Blue I use White Ensign Colourcoats. Humbrol 23 used to be a good match but they moved it closer to Sky a few years back. Ditto Colourcoats or Xtracolour for the uppersurface. Humbrol have modified their 30 to be a better match for Dark Green but I gather it is still a bit of a gamble - the last one I bought was still the old colour. Humbrol 29 will do for Dark Earth.

[shoey]

Foe Sky Blue I use White Ensign Colourcoats. Humbrol 23 used to be a good match but they moved it closer to Sky a few years back. Ditto Colourcoats or Xtracolour for the uppersurface. Humbrol have modified their 30 to be a better match for Dark Green but I gather it is still a bit of a gamble - the last one I bought was still the old colour. Humbrol 29 will do for Dark Earth.

thanks graham, much appreciated!

[shoey]

Foe Sky Blue I use White Ensign Colourcoats. Humbrol 23 used to be a good match but they moved it closer to Sky a few years back. Ditto Colourcoats or Xtracolour for the uppersurface. Humbrol have modified their 30 to be a better match for Dark Green but I gather it is still a bit of a gamble - the last one I bought was still the old colour. Humbrol 29 will do for Dark Earth.

Is this the one graham? Its RAAF sky blue...

[Test Graham]

I'm glad you asked that, for it set me looking and the Colourcoats AC RN 29 Sky Blue is the prewar greener, darker shade. The mention of RAAF left me a little baffled as to what I used last year. RAAF Sky Blue is supposed to be a little more intense than the RAE original, but I've just been up and looked at a tin and the top looks a fair match to the RAF colour. Having brought the tin top adjacent to the spinner of the model concerned (Bader's Spitfire Mk.II) the colour matches; so OK that's what I used.

Whereas I think the evidence presented in favour of Sky Blue on early SEAC Hurricanes is fairly good, enough to have a number of models lined up for this, I'm not so convinced that they would have continued with SB after the 1944 ruling in favour of MSG. Given that Nick suggests SB, I think that decision is up to you.

[Nick Millman]

FWIW and notwithstanding the vagaries of photographs I did a tonal analysis of that particular "Buccaneer" Hurricane image. The upper surface tones match the actual reflectivity of Dark Green and Dark Earth fairly closely with a correctly relative contrast. The under surface tone has a reflectivity of approx 50-52% which if relative to the upper surface tones would match Sky Blue (at 52%) but not Medium Sea Grey (at 26%) which was half as bright. Comparing that photo to others known to show MSG the under surface appears significantly brighter and lighter. I do not think this appearance is the result of deterioration of the paint surface as there is a hint of lustre on the tropical filter. In the airborne view the under surface appearance is exactly similar to the roundel centre and fin flash "India white".

Whether the under surface colour is really Sky Blue, some variation of Sky or Azure Blue or an especially light and bright variation of Sea Grey Medium I couldn't say but my own inclination would be to select a colour to match what was often described in theatre as "duck egg blue" or "sky blue" - that would have been Humbrol 23 before it lost its bluishness! Perhaps Shoey could ask his grandfather what he remembers about the colour underneath the Hurricane?

Bear in mind that the 1944 ruling would not have resulted in the immediate re-painting of all aircraft in theatre and the above accounts refer to events before or about the same time as the ruling in March and April 1944. The Monsoon struck in May, usually around the 16th, and the reduction in flying ops after that would have provided the opportunity to re-paint aircraft being serviced and overhauled. The main point of the change as I understand it was to avoid having to re-paint the under surfaces of aircraft being delivered in the Day Fighter scheme which had been standardised then.

Nick

[shoey]

FWIW and notwithstanding the vagaries of photographs I did a tonal analysis of that particular "Buccaneer" Hurricane image. The upper surface tones match the actual reflectivity of Dark Green and Dark Earth fairly closely with a correctly relative contrast. The under surface tone has a reflectivity of approx 50-52% which if relative to the upper surface tones would match Sky Blue (at 52%) but not Medium Sea Grey (at 26%) which was half as bright. Comparing that photo to others known to show MSG the under surface appears significantly brighter and lighter. I do not think this appearance is the result of deterioration of the paint surface as there is a hint of lustre on the tropical filter. In the airborne view the under surface appearance is exactly similar to the roundel centre and fin flash "India white".

Whether the under surface colour is really Sky Blue, some variation of Sky or Azure Blue or an especially light and bright variation of Sea Grey Medium I couldn't say but my own inclination would be to select a colour to match what was often described in theatre as "duck egg blue" or "sky blue" - that would have been Humbrol 23 before it lost its bluishness! Perhaps Shoey could ask his grandfather what he remembers about the colour underneath the Hurricane?

Bear in mind that the 1944 ruling would not have resulted in the immediate re-painting of all aircraft in theatre and the above accounts refer to events before or about the same time as the ruling in March and April 1944. The Monsoon struck in May, usually around the 16th, and the reduction in flying ops after that would have provided the opportunity to re-paint aircraft being serviced and overhauled. The main point of the change as I understand it was to avoid having to re-paint the under surfaces of aircraft being delivered in the Day Fighter scheme which had been standardised then.

Nick

I'm glad you clarified that Nick, as i have just ordered some tins of the colourcoats sky blue, dark earth and dark green! Without doing any analysis i too thought the undersurface looked quite light, so that is why i sided with your opinion and went that way. Is there any way you could do some analysis of the spinner as well? I have assumed it is white, or an off white colour, but your opinion would be valued! cheers. BTW i have asked my grandfather about the colours of his planes and as his memory is fading he cant remember any such detail unfortunately.

Regarding repainting of aircraft from official orders, a lot of early 1944 the airfields were boxed in by the Japanese, and these were jungle strips where the best bedding was a "charp" which was a hammock type bed in a tent ... i dont think repainting aircraft from orders from London would have been high on their agenda as Nick has mentioned!

Here is a picture of my grandfather "charping it off" and "digging in"

Edited April 1, 2014 by shoey

[Test Graham]

I agree there's be no local repainting, the squadrons would not have been carrying adequate supplies forward anyway. Any repainting would have been done in the MUs before issue to the squadrons. The rotation of Hurricanes back for overhaul/fabric refurbishment would have withdrawn any earlier colours before too long. Talking of such over-painting: Hurricanes received in Desert colours would presumably simply have the Mid Stone overpainted Dark Green and the Azure Blue undersides left.

Nick: is "India White" a phrase that is found in the original records? It appears to have appeared recently in modelling discussions, whereas the previous terms of light blue or SEAC blue would appear to be both more accurate and less potentially misleading.

[Nick Millman]

Nick: is "India White" a phrase that is found in the original records? It appears to have appeared recently in modelling discussions, whereas the previous terms of light blue or SEAC blue would appear to be both more accurate and less potentially misleading.

Good question, well put. I always believed the term to be only semi-official and possibly a colloquialism referring to the fact that the official orders from Air HQ India never replaced the requirement for 'White' with 'light blue' or 'pale blue' hence in full 'Air India Command (version of) White'.

6005/45/ENG of 29th Sep 1943 sets out the requirements for roundels and flashes using the term 'White' throughout but asterisked to a note as follows:-

"Experiment has shown that pure white is too conspicuous therefore the colour to be used instead is that resulting from the mixture of four parts of white and one part of blue. Details of the paints to be used are . . ."

The subsequent blue paint reference is to 33B/394 5 gal overseas containers of 'Identification' Blue to DTD 314 (synthetic) for metal surfaces and 33B/392 5 gal overseas containers of 'Identification' Blue to DTD 83A (cellulose) for fabric. Interestingly the DTD 314 reference to 'Identification White' provides no 33B stores reference but for fabric 33B/400 which is 5 gal overseas (cellulose)

The curious wording seems to deliberately avoid referring to the mix creating a 'light blue' or 'pale blue'!

A cursory attempt to find references to 'India White' in Bowyer or Thomas (where I thought it was) failed but I think it goes back further than just recent usage. Thomas refers to another order describing how the colour is to be made "off-white" by the addition of blue.

Mixing equivalent paints strictly to the formula results in a colour 'cooler' than Azure Blue but very close to one of the 'mysteriously missing' FS595b values 25440 described in another Federal spec as 'light blue'. Thomas gives FS 35450 and a reflectivity of 41%.

Nick

[Edgar]

"India" could simply refer to where the paint was being manufactured, since there was a Paint School, in India, by September 1942, which made exotic materials like "cement milk paint" (with Portland cement as one ingredient,) "Mocha paint" (which used fish glue,) & "cow dung paint," (self-explanatory, I think,) for building camouflage, so they could well have progressed to aircraft-quality paints by the end of the war. One of the ingredients was "chalk white" (whether it was made from chalk isn't mentioned.)

In all of the U.K. paint lists I've seen, "India White" has never appeared.

Edgar

[Randall]

Randall, how amazing! Your grandfather must have been the other pilot that straffed the 3 hurri's at Tamu that has been discussed here. Please feel free to post any photos or info from your grandfather. Here is a photo that papa took of the other 11 squadron pilots (prob of B flight) so see if you can pick out your grandfather...

My Granddad, Flying Officer Charles "Andy" Anderson DFC, is in the front row kneeling at the far left.

[shoey]

I have a technical question about the hurricane IIc..... for my 1/7 model I have decided to go all out and reproduce all the rivet detail. Does anyone know what spacings the rivets would have been on the wing, and when put down in a double row, were each pair staggered or opposite each other? Also same for the fuselage would be good too. Any links to technical drawings which show the above or pictures would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers

Sandy

[Roshan lee]

On 11/26/2013 at 5:56 AM, shoey said:

I remember my grandfather telling me the hurricane he flew could have 4 20mm cannon or 2 40 mm cannon interchanged. I'll go see him today and see what he can remember!

Dear Shoey,

I'm from Imphal and I found quite interesting reading your article of my ancient place during WWII. Can I get some information assistance from you !

 

                Roshan NAOREM.

[Roshan lee]

Can I know the format of sortie time. What is the meaning of  00.15 or 00:50 or 1.20 in timing.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Roshan lee

[Graham Boak]

These would be hours:minutes.  In your examples 15 minutes after the hour, 30 minutes after the hour, and 20 minutes past 1 o'clock

[mhaselden]

35 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

These would be hours:minutes.  In your examples 15 minutes after the hour, 30 minutes after the hour, and 20 minutes past 1 o'clock

 

Hi Graham,

 

He asked about "sortie time" which could simply mean the duration of the sortie: "15 minutes", "30 minutes" or "1 hour and 20 minutes". 

 

Cheers,
Mark

[Roshan lee]

8 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

These would be hours:minutes.  In your examples 15 minutes after the hour, 30 minutes after the hour, and 20 minutes past 1 o'clock

Thanks a lot sir !

[Roshan lee]

On 4/1/2014 at 4:47 PM, shoey said:

I'm glad you clarified that Nick, as i have just ordered some tins of the colourcoats sky blue, dark earth and dark green! Without doing any analysis i too thought the undersurface looked quite light, so that is why i sided with your opinion and went that way. Is there any way you could do some analysis of the spinner as well? I have assumed it is white, or an off white colour, but your opinion would be valued! cheers. BTW i have asked my grandfather about the colours of his planes and as his memory is fading he cant remember any such detail unfortunately.

Regarding repainting of aircraft from official orders, a lot of early 1944 the airfields were boxed in by the Japanese, and these were jungle strips where the best bedding was a "charp" which was a hammock type bed in a tent ... i dont think repainting aircraft from orders from London would have been high on their agenda as Nick has mentioned!

Here is a picture of my grandfather "charping it off" and "digging in"

Dear sir,

 I am just an enthusiast of the world war 2 and specially the air battles involved in and around Imphal and Burma front ! A few days before I saw just some post here as a visitor talking about air warfare in Burma front and regarding General Windgate's  ill -fated Mitchell Bomber crashing in the strom near Chin Hills, so I'm very interested and curious to know about other stories too. As far as I'm concerned and as a local person from Imphal I had got some few information regarding the actual crash site of General Windgate's Bomber Aircraft. My inputs are General Windgate's Aircraft crashed at a location south - west of Imphal about 70 miles at a hilly place called Thuilon, in Tamenglong district of Manipur. Some parts of the aircraft had already recovered from the crash site not so long ago. So, I just want to share some information from my side as someone may also want some inputs from the locals of Imphal. This is my simple plain objective in joining the forum and posting some of my views ! Thanks !

If there's any mistakes from my side please take it as ignorance from my side. I don't know the rules & regulations of posting here ! My enthusiasm is killing me so I'm just trying to get in touch with you. Please kindly accept me to know and learn something from you !

 

                            With regards,

                           Roshan N.

[mhaselden]

Hi Roshan,

 

You will find we are not very big on rules here.  As long as people are polite, don't swear and don't post offensive pictures, we pretty much take everyone as we find them.  I've been a Britmodeller for almost 10 years now (has it been that long?) and I've found most members are eager to share information and ask questions.  From what I've seen of your posts so far, you're already fitting in nicely!

 

For your question about "sortie time", are those times taken from a pilot logbook or other similar operational record?  If so, I suspect they simply show the duration of the flight:

.15 = 15 minutes

.30 = 30 minutes

1.20 = 1 hour and 20 minutes

 

Please keep posting - great to have contributions from all parts of the globe...and your knowledge of the terrain and history of an area of "The Forgotten War" will be appreciated by me and many others here.

 

Best wishes,

Mark

[Roshan lee]

On 11/25/2013 at 5:57 PM, Edgar said:

Grrrr, you're two days late, with this one; I checked on 11 Squadron's ORB, last Saturday, looking for "R.H. Gibson" references, and found many:-

LD859 "V" appears until mid-September, then vanishes, after which he flew LD108 "M," LE558 "V," LE266 "X," KZ526 "Z," LF177 "V," LD179 "D" & "N," LB913 "N," LB721 "M," and LB899 "V." He does seem to have flown a "V" on many occasions; from mid-November 1944, he disappears from the ORB (posted?)

I'll look for more (including your enquiry, Vingtor - any idea of dates, please, because the 1945 entries are particularly illegible, in places) during future visits.

Edgar

Can any of the gentleman here show me an ORB for the month of June , 1944 by 42 Squadron or XI Squadron . I'm doing a research on the details of RAF's influence and their role on the western side of Imphal valley in Indian Tiddim road where the Battle of Ningthoukhong and Torbung had been fought fiercely during the first week of June 1944 ! 

 

[Roshan lee]

On 3/14/2014 at 3:22 PM, Test Graham said:

Removal of one pair of cannon was done for two reasons. Firstly, to enable the fitting of a forward-facing camera in one of the fairings. This was (obviously) most common in the FR units. The other reason would be because the Hispano was heavy, which not only affected its climb and acceleration but also its agility in roll. This was why the Spitfire universal wing, as on the Mk.Vc and the IX, although designed to take four cannon, was only very rarely seen with them. This reason would be more applicable to the Hurricane fighter units, but was not universal and it's unclear just how commonly this was done. The firepower of four cannon was perhaps also seen as overkill against Japanese fighters: it has sometimes been said that the MK.IIC were initially restricted to the defence of Calcutta rather than tangling with the Oscars over the Arakan, but this does not seem to be true - at least not absolutely. I've recently seen it said that 28 Sq was denied permission to remove a pair of cannon. Later in the war the enemy fighter threat was greatly reduced and the four cannon was considered highly effective in the fighter-bomber role, which is where the majority of the Hurricanes were employed.

The same cannon were used on all Mk.IIc Hurricanes. Visible differences in Hispanos include the choice of round section or square section springs, and the position of the springs along the barrel. I don't know any other difference, nor the whys and wherefores of the spring section changes. I think the position of the springs was an early change and suspect all SEAC Hispanos will be of similar appearance - a survey of photos will find any with the springs in a different position.

I'm sorry this cannot be a completely definitive answer, but (other than the comment on FR units) I don't believe I've ever seen one such.

What's the difference between Rhubarbs and Ops !! What exactly is a sortie time !

Is it the time taken to finish a particular mission  or Ops or Rhubarbs from the take off to take down of the OPS or was it total no. of time in hours and minutes from the take off untill it was take down as long as the Ops continued !

 

                    Yours sincerely,

 

                      Roshan Lee . 

           Imphal valley,India.(Tulihal airport)

           If there's any mistakes please take it as my ignorance and Mr. Shoel could you please kindly give me a reply back or comply to establish a platform to get in touch personally ! I needed some information that you could probably provide it to me as I am currently doing research on Battle of Imphal ,'1944' .

[Roshan lee]

Dear Shoey,

Could you please kindly educate me about the sortie no.52 and sortie time on this particular Ops of .30 means exactly !

Does it mean total time taken to complete the mission or it took off from :30 hrs !

What does Sortie no. 53 and time 1:10 exactly means !

[Graham Boak]

Rhubarb is the name given to a particular kind of mission, if I recall correctly it was a fighter-only sweep behind enemy territory.

Sortie time is given from take-off to landing.

A sortie is one individual aircraft flight.  This is sometimes abused to mean a mission of several aircraft combined, but strictly a mission of four aircraft is four sorties.

As for the specific example of the times, this is ambiguous from the information you have given,  It could mean either.  One way to determine which is meant is to look at other missions carried out by the unit.  If every reference is to something between 0:30 and  1:30, then you are looking at durations.  If you find references to 11:30 and 5:20 then the references are to take-off times.