Heavily weathered airliners...

[tomprobert]

I must confess I tend to keep my weathering on civil stuff reasonably restrained. However, I found this album on Airliners.net and it has certainly got me thinking...

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?album=31542&thumbnails=noinfo&page_limit=120&photos_in_album=65&album_name=Dirty+Airplanes&album_creator=LesageCyprien&disp_order=desc

Some great ideas for 'dirtying up' your next civil build

Kev1n.... control yourself

Tom

Edited November 3, 2013 by tomprobert

[upnorth]

Pretty cool link. Airliners get a whole lot grubbier than most think.

It reminded me of a few pictures I took at Heathrow in July of 2012:

A couple of 747s with grubby tails:

And a 777, also a bit dirty around the nether regions:

[Kev1n]

"Airliners get a whole lot grubbier than most think."

Indeed they do - as to controlling myself, Tom; are you mad? These are how airliners should be modelled...

Splat on the grime!...may they live forever!....banish all clean models!....aahhh-hahahahahahaha...

(sound of manic laugtter in the distance)

[kev67]

If I was waiting to board a plane at an airport and saw how disgustingly dirty the plane was I about to get on, I might have second thoughts, if they keep the plane like that what's the flight and service going to be like

[RNoAF Aerobatic Team]

Like the Delta 757 at the bottom of the page. .

It looks pretty bad....

[Kev1n]

It mightr be worth pointing out that the exterior paint on an airliner does not necessarily affect the operating safety of the aircraft

tho' it might affect drag etc

Some airlines (including BA) have been known to clean the nose and the area around the doors as this is the bit that most people see most of the time when waiting in a modern terminal with a jetway attached to the first door.

which doesnt help if the aircraft is remote parked and your using stairs to get on....

airliners are like any other hard working machine, and they cost too much to have them sitting around airports looking pretty.

[pinky coffeeboat]

If I was waiting to board a plane at an airport and saw how disgustingly dirty the plane was I about to get on, I might have second thoughts, if they keep the plane like that what's the flight and service going to be like

I understand what you mean - some of the Chinese carriers have really filthy aircraft, as do other nations carriers in case any feels this is being unfair to China, but there seems to be more from that region that could be classed as dirty. Don't they have some kind of exterior cleaning schedule? Time on the ground costs money I know, but surely there must be a couple of hours to spare at the end of a work package?

[andy wood]

If I ever entered an airliner model as weathered as that Delta 757 or the ABX Air 767 I would be laughed out of the competition hall!

[garryrussell]

In the 60's when the 707 was King it was often said that if it was clean on the Atlantic it would save a ton of fuel.

Generally in the olden days they kept them clean even if just the fuse...the piston airliners always looked smart in mainline service. BOAC were always clean until BA days, but they were laid over at LHR between flights longer than short haul aircraft were.

BEA were cleanish until the mid sixties when thrust reverse was throwing up a lot of dirt they seemed to give up as had many others.

One thing to note if you do weather is that the streaks along the fuse coming from the upper windows follows the aerofoil shape of the wings as that is how the air is flowing.

Some of those pics show this a bit at the front.

Otherwise it follows shape so not always a straight reward streak.

Edited November 4, 2013 by garryrussell

[Jessica]

I understand what you mean - some of the Chinese carriers have really filthy aircraft, as do other nations carriers in case any feels this is being unfair to China, but there seems to be more from that region that could be classed as dirty. Don't they have some kind of exterior cleaning schedule? Time on the ground costs money I know, but surely there must be a couple of hours to spare at the end of a work package?

China suffers from having less strict air pollution laws than most Western countries, so Chinese airliners, as a rule, have to fly through more filth on a daily basis than Western carriers. Some of it sticks

[garryrussell]

When Aer Lingus introduced the Viscount, they spent a large proportion of their time flying approaches over cities when pollution was high in those days.

More so than other airlines as most of the flights were Ireland to London, Manchester and other UK cities.

They were getting dirty very quickly and were hard to make look clean in their overall metal livery despite washing. It was for that reason they introduced the green top livery which initially was a special Viscount only livery.

It was done simply to not show the dirt so much. After about two years it was extended to other fleet members.

This is NOT an urban myth

[pigsty]

If I was waiting to board a plane at an airport and saw how disgustingly dirty the plane was I about to get on, I might have second thoughts, if they keep the plane like that what's the flight and service going to be like.

That might be the reaction of the general paying self-loading cargo, but I'd hope we as modellers would know the difference. No-one is going to sit on the mucky tailcone, so it doesn't need to be clean, and we know it's not safety-critical. I'd be happy if they spent the limited time between sectors picking chewing gum off the seats and making sure the plastic food was at the correct (but wrong) temperature.

If I ever entered an airliner model as weathered as that Delta 757 or the ABX Air 767 I would be laughed out of the competition hall!

How about if you offered photographic proof?

[garryrussell]

I've seen many very mucky aeroplanes and never heard any passenger comment on it let alone doubt about flying in it.

Folks are intelligent enough to know that the dirt makes no differences to their travel.

[upnorth]

My mom came to visit me from Canada a few years ago and took Alitalia part of the way.

She said the planes were filthy inside and out, but that became a secondary concern once she started experiencing the surly cabin crew.

[Alan P]

Might as well recycle a few older threads as the lame search function only goes back about a year:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/66282-maybe-its-time-to-start-weathering-our-airliners/

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/42534-finish-on-airliners/

Some good pics and tips there!

Al

[Kev1n]

If I ever entered an airliner model as weathered as that Delta 757 or the ABX Air 767 I would be laughed out of the competition hall!

back it up with photo evidence - I do know the feeling; it helps if the judges know something about airliners but for a while I never got diddly squat in any competiton until I started adding pics of the real one and talking to people who were judging. At one show I had this from the judges; "We couldn't find anything wrong with the build but we felt it was too dirty for an airliner"

having flown on the aircraft concerned, I knew what it was like so thats how I modelled it.

Most airliner builders don't (or haven't) helped themselves by insisting on a high glossy finish with no added detail of any kind. I've been banging on about this for a while now and when *some* military modellers dismiss airliner models, while I dont agree with them, they do have a point; many military builders routinely add weathering and extra bits and bobs.

But not airliner modellers.

So get the grime on!!!

Just do your research and apply it in the right places and in the right way

[bentwaters81tfw]

I was waiting to board at either Catania or Ciampino one day, and a Fokker VFW sat on the apron.

Not so much dirty, but a large amount of fuselage paint was peeling off down to the metal.

A strip above the windows at least half the length of the fuselage and 2 feet deep was simply peeled back like tree bark. German airline I recall. Wish I'd taken a photo now.

[bzn20]

Aircraft wash regimes have more to do with "health and Safety" than asthetics. Nuclear tests, two real dets and reactor leaks etc. have released radio active material into the atmosphere. You need to be aware but not to panic!

I was getting six monthly Geiger checks from my 1st posting 1972 onwards. It had been going on a long time before that. The contaminants stick to the airframe,even now. Aircraft have to be (IRC) washed every six months and before hangar scheduled servicings, to protect people. So, not to worry Pigsty!

If they are frequent visitors to or based at airports/fields next to the sea (salt air) they are washed more frequently, to protect the airframe.

Jessica's comment about the Chinese fleets is dead on. I saw Chinese Tridents at Kai Tak 1982,they appeared to have been doused with buckets of sand and mud. They looked like they been abandoned for years!

Dirt doesn't cause drag unless its clods of it. Smears, stains,streaks etc. are probably in the boundary layer, the air doesn't move.

Edited November 5, 2013 by bzn20

[mumbles]

Dirt doesn't cause drag unless its clods of it. Smears, stains,streaks etc. are probably in the boundary layer, the air doesn't move.

Wondering if that applies to this? There is video from inside the aircraft (or from a similar takeoff) somewhere. It starts off clear enough, but quickly becomes clear as mud

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUtYlR28Yb4

Not drag producing, but I understand the amount of dirt/dust etc that collects in the undercarriage bays of a C-17 during rough field operations can be measured in multiple pounds.

[bzn20]

Blimey! I'm amazed it got enough speed for take off. Cant believe the runway was open for business .

Edited November 5, 2013 by bzn20

[AndyC]

That is a seriously scary video!

[Graeme H]

I've seen many very mucky aeroplanes and never heard any passenger comment on it let alone doubt about flying in it.

Folks are intelligent enough to know that the dirt makes no differences to their travel.

Not sure that is true, as a former dispatch officer, I have had lots of comments about the aircraft being dirty on the outside, once had a Captain refuse to take an aircraft because it was too dirty, and he wrote it up in the log book as such, when I refused to let him change aircraft, so he forced my hand.

Back in the '80's at Heathrow, when I Arrived on a QF 747 that was less than a year old and a Pan Am 747-100 which was probably close to 20 yo parked next to us, when a group of 20 something pax off the Pan Am flight sat looking out the window and discussing at length the cleanliness about the 2 aircraft, comments such as "terrible", "disgusting" etc about their aircraft.

Of course Kev1n would know, but I don't think any Pan Am aircraft was ever cleaned from the day they left the paintshop.

When I worked for a small commuter airline Air Queensland, and we had 5 Twin Otters based at our airport, we had a dedicated cleaner who did every aircraft once a week, with a big bucket, broom and step ladder, other company aircraft also got the treatment.

Later when I worked for Qantas they do their aircraft usually every B Check (about every4 months) unless they have a sudden time constraint, and some do slip through without a clean for quite a while.

More than anything it's about the airline company policy, what's the point of having logo lights for night if the aircraft is so dirty that you can't see the logo?

[garryrussell]

Maybe there is not much drag form dirt yet some fighter pilots used to unofficially polish the matt camo for a little extra speed. ??

As for comment...all I can say is I have never heard anyone say anything, but others may well have a different experience.

Edited November 5, 2013 by garryrussell

[Alan P]

Wow that mud video is amazing. There's nothing in the performance manual about three inches of mud! Must drag worse than anything.

[Kev1n]

re the vid - looking at the way the aircraft was sliding about and the reluctance to unstick at rotation I'd say its performance was degraded on the roll...however; I'd also guess that there was a good reason for going and the crew knew what they were doing, even if they did use up almost the entire length of runway.

as to Pan Am's aircraft; I too have sat at LHR and looked at a 747 that I was about to get on and wondered about what appeared to be a crack running up the fuselage....not to mention the grime and simialr comments as to those Graeme referred to....I've got some pics somewhere, I'll go look for them and post them