Oil stains on Spitfires!

[tank152]

Hi, I'm hoping one of our Spitfire experts can help me out. I've just reached the weathering stage on my Captured MkIX. My question is regarding the oils staining that I believe were common on the under surfaces on Spitfires? Now taking into account this Spitfire wouldn't have been flown hard, I guess, would it have had much staining or would that have only come with being flown hard such as in combat? If the answer is yes it would can anyone provide any pics that I can use for reference.

Thanks in advance,

Tim.

Edited August 29, 2013 by tank152

[Troy Smith]

Hi Tim

the general consensus seems that when Merlin didn't leak, worry!

Now, this is a MkXII, ie early Griffon

basically, it leaked out the back of the engine compartment and blew back.

But, it would get cleaned off, and I'd imagine the Germans would take care of their 'zoo' specimens so depends if you want post flight or not...

I'm sure others will have better pics, but this one sprung to mind..

here's a PRXI, just remebered this one

HTH

T

[tank152]

Troy,

thanks for your reply. So a Merlin that didn't leak normally meant that someone had forgot to check and top the oil up?

Looks like I'm going to have to go and practice doing some oil streaking then, if I can't get them right then it'll have to be pre flight!

Cheers,

Tim.

[Mikey58]

In the top pic,looks like staining on the tail planes too,not surprising with all of that oil being blown back.

Mike

[Cpt_Farrel]

I've got some airshow photos of a Spitfire XVI that I could post, a warbird and a captured aircraft might see about the same use and maintenance...

/Anders

[tank152]

I've got some airshow photos of a Spitfire XVI that I could post, a warbird and a captured aircraft might see about the same use and maintenance...

/Anders

Hi Anders, you can never have to many photos to use, so feel free to post away!

Tim.

[Miggers]

I've got some airshow photos of a Spitfire XVI that I could post, a warbird and a captured aircraft might see about the same use and maintenance...

/Anders

Be very careful,modern Merlins are much more oiltight than wartime/post-war service ones.

As Troy mentions,if you had a wartime Merlin or Griffon that didn't leak then it

hadn't any oil in it

[Cpt_Farrel]

Not so sure about that...

Unfortunately the pictures I had were taken a couple of years back and well, I've improved since then and zooming in was very revealing...

BTW These two photos were taken at different airshows so the difference in oilstains didn't happen during the flight. Anyway, I hope it might be useful, at least it shows the flow of the spill and I find it interesting that the radiators seems to be quite stained as well.

[tank152]

Anders, those photos are most useful, as like you say they give a good idea of how the oil flowed in the air stream plus it is clear to see now from where they started. With these and the ones Troy posted I now have some great reference to use.

On a side note, I'd like to model one of those Erla G10s from your Profile Workshop in the future, the markings would be done by masks so would need the profile to send to the person who will be making them, would that be ok?

Thanks again,

Tim.

[Cpt_Farrel]

No worries, let me know which one and I might even have Corel Draw files for them as I've done some custom decals in the past. I love the Erla built G-10's so you have me curious now, you got a conversion kit or are you planning your own route? Maybe not a subject for this thread so PM me if you like...

[JOAN]

Tim,

Some period pics here :

Seems that the stains are mainly under the wing but still going backward with the fuselage....

cheers

Olivier

[Learstang]

Yes, what a superbly filthy engine the Merlin was! I have a photograph in a thread on the Lancaster GR.3 that has to be seen to be believed. That Lancaster must have lost gallons of oil on that flight. Oh, all right, I'll post the picture here. I hope this isn't too off-topic.

Regards,

Jason

[tank152]

Olivier and Jason great pics and thanks for posting them. The thing that puzzles me even more after looking at those pics is why do people get all touchy on here when it comes to weathering Spitfires when its plain to see what filthy things they actually were, I'd go as far to say they were far worse than Bf109s and Fw190s ever got.

Cheers,

Tim.

[Learstang]

Olivier and Jason great pics and thanks for posting them. The thing that puzzles me even more after looking at those pics is why do people get all touchy on here when it comes to weathering Spitfires when its plain to see what filthy things they actually were, I'd go as far to say they were far worse than Bf109s and Fw190s ever got.

Cheers,

Tim.

I agree. I was just looking at a Spitfire HF Mk.VII I did some time back and thinking that I might have overdone the underside weathering but looking at these photographs, I realise I didn't.

Regards,

Jason

[Cpt_Farrel]

The pictures don't lie, but how much of that would've been cleaned off after the mission? Might be worth thinking about, for example, an aircraft with the gunports patched up looking ready to go on a mission should perhaps look cleaner than one with blown gunport patches looking like it recently had come back from action?

[tank152]

The pictures don't lie, but how much of that would've been cleaned off after the mission? Might be worth thinking about, for example, an aircraft with the gunports patched up looking ready to go on a mission should perhaps look cleaner than one with blown gunport patches looking like it recently had come back from action?

Which is why you should think in advance how your model is to be weathered, all the different stages should follow on from each other. Its mo good making these things up as you go along.

As for my Spitfire I'll just give of some light to medium streaking I think.

Tim.

[Miggers]

Which is why you should think in advance how your model is to be weathered, all the different stages should follow on from each other. Its mo good making these things up as you go along.

As for my Spitfire I'll just give of some light to medium streaking I think.

Tim.

What I've always said,paint what you see,not what you think you see.

Look at all of those pictures,do you see(ok,they're mosty underside shots granted,but..)thick black/dark

panel lines all over the things that some like to present a Spit/Seaf. model with so that it looks like a

patchwork quilt?

Spit/Sea panels were either butt or lap jointed then filled/smoothed and primed except for access

panels.

As Edgar has pointed out before,some of the none stressed panels on Spits/Seas are only

5 to 10thou thick,so get your feeler gauges out( a lot of you will be wondering what the hell they are),

two butt joints between two 10thou aluminium alloy sheets isnt going to be much of a joint at all is it?.

So you're looking at cowlings/Dzus fasteners on them,gun/magazine panels,radio hatch and

fuel filler caps,that's about it on a Spit/Seafire.

Look at the last pic of the Seafire XVII on finals(SX291/155/BR),you can see the cowling panel lines

and their Dzus fasteners standing out but that's it on the fuselage.

Underwing is a little more grubby,but don't forget that this is a Seafire XVII and has manually folded wings.

Plenty of roofrat hands touch that underside every time it's ranged for take off or has landed and parked.

Merlins and Griffons blew oil back from the nearest lowest point on the airframe.

Rear lower cowling and panel lines also from around the rear of the carb.intake,certainly no further forward

than that.

It's your model and it's upto you how you weather it,but the above tends to be how I look at doing a Spit/Seaf.

[Leadsolo]

Thanks chaps...most useful references!

[noelh]

The pictures don't lie, but how much of that would've been cleaned off after the mission? Might be worth thinking about, for example, an aircraft with the gunports patched up looking ready to go on a mission should perhaps look cleaner than one with blown gunport patches looking like it recently had come back from action?

I doubt it very much. It's a horrific job. Take it from me, lying on your back trying wipe the mixture of mud and oil off the bottom of the fuselage is the stuff of nightmares. All of it transfers itself onto your clothes, face and hair and that's with modern cleaning materials and a power washer. I wonder what trouble a hapless erk would need to get into to get that job?

Besides the state of the Spits in those photos proves they it wasn't a priority!

[Troy Smith]

I doubt it very much. It's a horrific job. Take it from me, lying on your back trying wipe the mixture of mud and oil off the bottom of the fuselage is the stuff of nightmares. All of it transfers itself onto your clothes, face and hair and that's with modern cleaning materials and a power washer. I wonder what trouble a hapless erk would need to get into to get that job?

Besides the state of the Spits in those photos proves they it wasn't a priority!

I bet you the gunk was cleaned off. Oil, well, dirt sticking to it are not going to help aerodynamics.

Probably with a cloth soaked in petrol.... which would work well I'd think but i don't doubt it wasn't a unpleasant job

cheers

T

[Troy Smith]

I doubt it very much. It's a horrific job. Take it from me, lying on your back trying wipe the mixture of mud and oil off the bottom of the fuselage is the stuff of nightmares. All of it transfers itself onto your clothes, face and hair and that's with modern cleaning materials and a power washer. I wonder what trouble a hapless erk would need to get into to get that job?

Besides the state of the Spits in those photos proves they it wasn't a priority!

I bet you the gunk was cleaned off. Oil, well, dirt sticking to it are not going to help aerodynamics.

Probably with a cloth soaked in petrol.... which would work well I'd think but i don't doubt it wasn't a unpleasant job

cheers

T

[Edgar]

I doubt it very much. It's a horrific job. Take it from me, lying on your back trying wipe the mixture of mud and oil off the bottom of the fuselage is the stuff of nightmares. All of it transfers itself onto your clothes, face and hair and that's with modern cleaning materials and a power washer. I wonder what trouble a hapless erk would need to get into to get that job?

Going by what former erks have told me, he was more likely to get into trouble if he hadn't done the job, in fact it was a matter of pride to keep "their" (they only loaned them to the pilots) aircraft looking pristine, and they normally had only a single airframe in their charge, often working through the night to have it ready for the next morning. One erk told me how his pilot used to place a handkerchief on the leading edge, and, if it didn't slide straight off, they hadn't polished it enough.

Besides the state of the Spits in those photos proves they it wasn't a priority!

Actually, it only proves that those aircraft hadn't been cleaned for at least one flight (it's surprising how far a little oil will spread.)

Edgar

[Daniel Cox]

Hi All,

Of course much to the chagrin no doubt of those former erks, the vast majority of extant photographs of Spitfires show them as unclean machines, considering the visual evidence anecdotes about handkerchiefs seem a little tall in the telling.

It is very difficult to find a Spitfire (it does happen on rare occasion though, please do share these pictures if you have any!) as photographed during the Second World War that could be considered pristine regardless of Theatre of Operation.

Cheers,

Daniel.

[Paul J]

I would, basically, weather to a moderate degree rather than overdoing it. The photos above do show varying dgerees of staining and quite heavy too. So on a model its quite easy to go too far and its down to how you want to depict it. Really unkempt or at earlyish stages of use. As with alot of things we do like eat and drink, do it in moderation to avoid unpleasantness.

[noelh]

I wouldn't doubt the erks did their best when the circumstances favoured it. Particularly at an established airfield with hangars and all that. But in wartime in blacked out dispersals at forward airstrips it's a different story. Besides the photos tell the story.