On Hurricanes

[JG63]

Greetings All!

Discovered this site recently and have a few queries. I've always been enamored with the Hawker Hurricane and after some research, it turns out a relative was actually a Hurricane pilot in the Battle of Britain! Though he was a Sergeant and certainly not an Ace, I'd like to honor his memory. I'm in the process of building his two Hurricanes and need some information. Here's what I know:

Pilot - Albert Thomas Gooderham, RAF service # 742957 (Sergeant)

Mounts - 46 Squadron (post Norway) Hurricane MK 1, serial V6789 shot down over the Thames Estuary 15 OCT 40 (survived)

615 Squadron Hurricane MK IIc, serial Z3841 shot down over Thames Estuary/Channel 02 NOV 41 (KIA)

ATTENTION HURRICANE KNOWLEDGE GURUS!

I know 46 squadron markings were "PO" during that time, anyone know which letter identifier V6789 carried? or if it was an "A" or "B" color scheme? I'm assuming it was Dark Earth, Green, Sky combo with possibly a black half wing scheme (?) please help.

I know 615 markings were "KW" but by NOV 1941 may not have had squadron codes applied. Any ideas on what Hurricane Z3841 would have looked like on that day in November 1941.

Any help, direction to historical websites, photos, or general knowledge would be MUCH appreciated!

Cordially, SFC John Gooderham

[Troy Smith]

Hi John

what scale are you planning on, and how fussy are you on accuracy? [ie what kits are you planning on]

Quite a few questions, and there have been quite a few similar enquires here over the years. Often you will not be able to get the aircraft code letter, as it was often not recorded.

And RAF squadron codes, especially i the BoB era vary a lot in 'font' and even the way they read eg port could be PO-x, or x-PO, and the same on the starboard. Often you will have to search for pics of planes from the same squadron and era to get an idea.

sorry, that might sound off putting, just my experience of seeing these queries.

for example

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234943155-raf-codesserialsspitfire-and-hurricane

and

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234941213-3-sqn-hurricane-july-1940-period-a-few-questions

Now while these are not specific to your precies questions, there is a lot of useful inof on hurricanes and markings, and 'best guesses'

And there are other members who may know exactly what you want

HTH

T

[tango98]

Hi John,

I may be able to help after I check my files.

A quick initial look at my Hurricane loss listings says he was KIA when shot down by flak while on an evening shipping recce and gives his rank as Flt./Sgt.

No location/area is given but the 615 ORB may hold a bit more info.

I'll continue poking around and see what else I can dig up for you.

Cheers

Dave

[AndyL]

He was one of two pilots lost from 615 that day - the other being F/Sgt J.E Slade in BE144. Both listed as being KIA to flak off Ostend.

It was part of Roadstead to attack shipping off Ostend-Dunkirk, and 615 were tasked with anti flak operations. 607 Squadron also took part, losing one Hurricane and pilot, and all three Hurricanes were IIb variants - as listed in my claims/losses files, but I stand to be corrected. I have also checked, and there were no Luftwaffe claims for Hurricanes that day, so certainly brought down by flak.

Hope this helps,

Andy

Edited August 19, 2013 by AndyL

[JG63]

Thanks ANDY! After some consideration and some good information from T98 and Troy, it looks like I'll be re-imagining my project(s). I suppose the MKIIb variant looked like this:

http://www.rafweb.org/SqnMark615.htm%C2'>

I'm going with dark earth, green, duck egg blue and bulbous spinner now. I'm thinking of working up a Revell 1/32 scale MKIIc (with desert camo box art) as that is the scale of birds over my desk. His MK1 (V6789) will be in a separate formation of in flight 1/48 ETO birds on the right flank of my cubicle at 2.2 meters AGL altitude. Gotta get busy. I've only got MKIIc variants in 1/48 (though I DO have a 1/24 Airfix in the hangar to be built...) Any suggestions on a good looking, inexpensive MKI for out of box accuracy? Again these will be posed gear up, in full flight without a lot of minute details. Amazed at the knowledge level on this site! THANKS ALL! JG

[AndyL]

John,

Here's a little more information for you regarding his October 15th engagement.

46 Squadron were engaged in combat over the Thames Estuary at approx. 2.30pm by Bf 109's, with them losing two Hurricanes and one pilot. Flight Sergeant Eric Williams, in V6550, crashed through the roof of Bartons Timber Wharf in Gravesend, and the Hurricane buried itself so deep in the floor that Flight Sergeant Williams was unable to be recovered.

Sergeant (as his rank was then) Gooderham abandoned Hurricane V6789, with the stricken aircraft coming down near Gravesend.

Luftwaffe claims for Hurricanes that day totalled 19, the majority relating to the actions earlier in the morning of October 15th. Looking at the claims, it looks like they both could have been shot down by pilots from Stab II./JG26, judging by the times and locations of the combats. The claims that seem to tie in are the ones made by Hauptmann Walter Adolph and Oberleutenant Harald Grawatsch - they were their 12th and 2nd kills respectively.

As a side note, I visited Bartons Timber Wharf with Steve Vizard, way back in about 1997. It was a sad, empty place, earmarked for redevelopment. The floor of the warehouse was still its original compacted dirt, and had never been concreted. As the site was likely to be obliterated, a survey was undertaken to see if the Hurricane and the remains of Eric Williams could be recovered. In recent years, the Royal Engineers did a test dig on site, but sadly were unable to find any trace of the Hurricane and pilot. This was due to the wharf being right by the river, and after penetrating the soil layers it entered a level of water saturated sand. Over the years, this has enabled the wreck to drift, or sink further, making it unrecoverable.

HTH,

Andy

Edited August 20, 2013 by AndyL

[Fernando]

Hi, JG63,

Are you describing the IIb or the IA? The IIb in 1941 should be Dark Green/Ocean Grey/Medium Sea Grey, with "long" spinner and Rotol prop.

The IA might be as you describe.

I would suggest the Airfix 1/48 kit.

Fernando

[JG63]

THX Fernando! Looks like the final lineup will be - Pegasus 1/48 MK I with DE, DG, Sky undersides, black spinner coded PO (insert roundel here on port side) G with the same on starboard. The MKII B will be the Revell 1/32 with 20mm cannon removed (along with wing blisters) done in a MSG, LSG, DG scheme with sky "long' spinner and fuse band. I'm gonna go ahead and code it KW (roundel) G as there is no positive info on the subject matter. I've found some photos from 46 squadron but only from their ill fated carrier voyage from Norway. I'll be posting photos as I build. Thanks to all for input and help. JG