1/72 Jet Provosts - Finished

[Fritag]

Hello again all. Thanks to all those who contributed to - or for that matter just looked in at - my Chipmunk threads.

Next in line is the Jet Provost; or more properly both the T3A and the T5A.

Having successfully negotiated the FSS course on the Chipmunk at Swinderby those of us who weren't chopped went on to BFTS on the JP at Church Fenton.

As I remember it the FSS course was only for those who didn't have a PPL or had not flown with the UAS - in broad terms those without significant prior flying training. When we got to Church Fenton we rejoined those who had avoided FSS.

There were two of us on the course who were just 18 whilst most of the chaps were a few years older. One or two were graduates but I seem to remember that many, if not most, graduates did BFTS at Cranwell.

Roland has posted an enjoyable 10 minute video clip (here: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234932824-airfix-chipmunk-t10-now-with-thoughts-for-next-build/?p=1369534) made by someone on 10 course at Church Fenton. I was on 11 course so followed straight after.

We did the first part of the course on the T3A and those of us judged to have fast jet potential then finished off the course on the T5A. In fact at the time I went through BFTS if you weren't going to be streamed fast jet (group 1) you got binned because the RAF didnt need any new transport (group 2) or helicopter (group 3) pilots.

Then out of the blue it was decided that some helicopter pilots were needed and a couple of guys who were struggling and looked likely to get binned did a shorter lead in on the T5A before going off to Shawbury to learn to fly helicopters. One of these guys then got chopped at Shawbury (I think) and the other went on to fly the Wessex in Hong Kong. I don't think he complained.

Given how demanding transport and (in particular) helicopter flying can be I've often wondered how artificial this rigidly hierarchical process was - but there we are - ours was not to reason why - we just had to hope that the instructors thought we could make it on fast jets. Mind you - you'd have to ask an instructor what qualities they were told to look for.

Anyway. Back to the important stuff. I've got both the JP 3 and 5 in 1/48 scale but I enjoyed the Chipmunk build in 1/72 and so I'm going to stick with 1/72 for now.

I haven't got the old Airfix T3 kit - and I'm not sure I'd want it. But I've now acquired the CMR resin T3/4 from which to build a T3A. I've never built a resin kit before or used any resin parts - so any hints and tips would be appreciated.

I have the old Airfix Strikemaster/JP 5 from which I can build a T5A.

So here are the box tops:

And here are the contents:

The old Airfix kit looks a bit old and crude against the CMR; but at least I know how to glue it together!

I'm going to build T3A - XN506 (coded as 81 at Church Fenton) cos that's the aircraft in which I did my first ever solo way back when:

I haven't decided what particular JP5A to build. Maybe XW419, coded 125, as that's the last JP I flew - on the course aerobatics competition (wot I won ) that followed our final handling tests.

The Chipmunk was my re-entry to the hobby after many years away and only my second build since I was a spotty teenager. I tried several things new to me and learnt a lot; mostly with the help of fellow BM'ers but it was in essence a build using traditional materials and techniques the only aftermarket bits I used were a couple of PE shoulder belts. The chippie leant itself to this sort of build cos it's basically a simple WW2 type of airframe.

The JP is a different thing beast all together. The cockpit is typically jet like with lots of little switches, knobs and dials and the fuselage has lots of little lumps and bumps and intakes.

So partly for this reason and partly to learn how to use the new fangled materials and accessories available nowadays I'm thinking about using whatever resin and etch bits and bobs I can get hold of to improve the old Airfix kit - I know that there's a JP5 cockpit in resin out there for example. I'll decide finally how to improve the Airfix kit after some more thought..

But this is a bit premature at present. I'm not quite ready to start building yet.

In truth I don't actually know that much about the Jet Provost.

I well remember the sweaty feeling I associate with flying the blooming thing under the watchful gaze of instructors trained in inflicting psychological torture and I remember something of what it was like to fly it but I don't really remember much of the detail of the aircraft itself. Despite having done weeks of ground school before being allowed near it.

The reference materials I have are these:

Plus the walk around pictures on the BM site - plus some cockpit photos that Keef posted at the end of the Chipmunk build thread.

There are a few reference issues I need to clear up before I get building.

I'll leave it there for now - time for a glass of red wine. Tomorrow I'll post up my thoughts so far on the accuracy of the kits and the reference issues I've identified to date.

Steve

Edited January 25, 2015 by Fritag

[Viking]

This is going to be good!

[wagoneer]

If you're Chipmunk build was your first foray back into the hobby, these Provosts are going to be amazing. The bar you set is rather high!

Go on then, get cracking!

[geedubelyer]

Wait,......what did he say?

Let me go and get my optivisors....some of us are over fifty you know!

What's with the microscopic text.......?

Cool! If this is half as good as your Chippy thread it'll be the second best thread of the year Steve.

Great stuff.

[Fritag]

Wait,......what did he say?

Let me go and get my optivisors....some of us are over fifty you know!

What's with the microscopic text.......?

Cool! If this is half as good as your Chippy thread it'll be the second best thread of the year Steve.

Great stuff.

Oops . Typed in Word and cut and pasted it. Didn't realise it came out microscopic. Sorted it by edit now I think....

Edited August 6, 2013 by Fritag

[Roland Pulfrew]

Uh oh. I had a plan to build all of "my" types as well starting with the FSS Chipmunk, followed by a JP3 and a JP5. I watched in wonderment at Fritag's Chipmuk build wondering whether I should hang up my brushes and paint; now I'm going to have to watch a build of a 3 and a 5 to the same standard.

Oh well

I have a certificate very much like that, but for some reason mine was yellow in colour (was each courses colour coded?) and has RAF Elvington on it for my first solo.

[perdu]

Steve, thank the lawd that you resized the type ooeer, I thought I'd finally had it

Love that certificate, wow

As I don't know resin from plastic padding (the only non polystyrene in my repertoire) I expect to be less obtrusive with this build as we learn together

It is going to be fun riding along in your JPs with you though, 'cos you made the not so 'umble Chippy a gala ride

(this is me here down at the back ...)

Roland ffs man get it on, nowt wrong with more Chippies, I'm dead in favour.

If I can ever work out the prefix for 8AEF's '303 I intend having a bash at her in her HSS and Yellow trainer bands from '62. My first flight ever. Lost my soul to the low cloud base over Shawbury that day. Oh the glory of flight.

No contest to you younger guys with hours of 'hands on' but I think I want to join in. Ebay being scoured as we sit watching the JPs come on line

b

[Selwyn]

Hello again all. Thanks to all those who contributed to or for that matter just looked in at - my Chipmunk threads.

Next in line is the Jet Provost or more properly both the T3A and the T5A.

Having successfully negotiated the FSS course on the Chipmunk at Swinderby those of us who werent chopped went on to BFTS on the JP at Church Fenton.

As I remember it the FSS course was only for those who didnt have a PPL or had not flown with the UAS - in broad terms those without significant prior flying training. When we got to Church Fenton we rejoined those who had avoided FSS.

There were two of us on the course who were just 18 whilst most of the chaps were a few years older. One or two were graduates but I seem to remember that many, if not most, graduates did BFTS at Cranwell.

Roland has posted an enjoyable 10 minute video clip (here: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234932824-airfix-chipmunk-t10-now-with-thoughts-for-next-build/?p=1369534) made by someone on 10 course at Church Fenton. I was on 11 course so followed straight after.

We did the first part of the course on the T3A and those of us judged to have fast jet potential then finished off the course on the T5A. In fact at the time I went through BFTS if you werent going to be streamed fast jet (group 1) you got binned because the RAF didnt need any new transport (group 2) or helicopter (group 3) pilots.

Then out of the blue it was decided that some helicopter pilots were needed and a couple of guys who were struggling and looked likely to get binned did a shorter lead in on the T5A before going off to Shawbury to learn to fly helicopters. One of these guys then got chopped at Shawbury (I think) and the other went on to fly the Wessex in Hong Kong. I dont think he complained.

Given how demanding transport and (in particular) helicopter flying can be Ive often wondered how artificial this rigidly hierarchical process was but there we are ours was not to reason why we just had to hope that the instructors thought we could make it on fast jets. Mind you -you'd have to ask an instructor what qualities they were told to look for.

Anyway. Back to the important stuff. Ive got both the JP 3 and 5 in 1/48 scale but I enjoyed the Chipmunk build in 1/72 and so Im going to stick with 1/72 for now.

I haven't got the old Airfix T3 kit and Im not sure Id want it. But Ive now acquired the CMR resin T3/4 from which to build a T3A. Ive never built a resin kit before or used any resin parts so any hints and tips would be appreciated.

I have the old Airfix Strikemaster/JP 5 from which I can build a T5A.

So here are the box tops:

And here are the contents:

The old Airfix kit looks a bit old and crude against the CMR but at least I know how to glue it together!

I'm going to build T3A - XN506 (coded as 81 at Church Fenton) cos thats the aircraft in which I did my first ever solo way back when:

I havent decided what particular JP5A to build. Maybe XW419, coded 125, as thats the last JP I flew on the course aerobatics competition (wot I won ).

The Chipmunk was my re-entry to the hobby after many years away and only my second build since I was a spotty teenager. I tried several things new to me and learnt a lot mostly with the help of fellow Bmers but it was in essence a build using traditional materials and techniques the only aftermarket bits I used were a couple of PE shoulder belts. The chippie leant itself to this sort of build cos it is basically a simple WW2 type of airframe.

The JP is a different thing beast all together. The cockpit is typically jet like with lots of little switches, knobs and dials and the fuselage has lots of little lumps and bumps and intakes.

So partly for this reason and partly to learn how to use the new fangled materials and accessories available nowadays I'm thinking about using whatever resin and etch bits and bobs I can get hold of to improve the old Airfix kit - I know that there's a JP5 cockpit in resin out there for example. I'll decide finally how to improve the Airfix kit after some more thought..

But this is a bit premature at present. Im not quite ready to start building yet.

In truth I don't actually know that much about the Jet Provost.

I well remember the sweaty feeling I associate with flying the blooming thing under the watchful gaze of instructors trained in inflicting psychological torture and I remember something of what it was like to fly it but I dont really remember much of the detail of the aircraft itself. Despite having done weeks of ground school before being allowed near it.

The reference materials I have are these:

Plus the walk around pictures on the BM site - plus some cockpit photos the Keef posted at the end of the Chipmunk build thread.

There are a few reference issues I need to clear up before I get building.

I'll leave it there for now time for a glass of red wine Tomorrow Ill post up my thoughts so far on the accuracy of the kits and the reference issues I've identified to date.

Steve

I would stay away from the warpaint as a reference source. I picked it up when I was building my JP and even with the little I know of JP it was quite simply one of the worst reference books I have ever come across.

This series of references went rapidly downhill when Alan Hall was taken from us.This one is the worst I have seen to date. Its full of errors, misleading photo's (Loved the JP cockpit pictures with the Gunsights!), Typos by the dozen (at one point it tells You, totally out of contex, how good the Gnat was as a trainer?) It does not tell you anywhere in the text that the Strikemaster had guns fitted anyway.(discounting the mislabelled pictures of the gunsight of course!)

Total waste of money on my part.

Selwyn

Selwyn

[milktrip]

I'm looking forward to this. Your chippie thread / build was great to read and watch unfold. I picked up lots of information on modelling techniques that I have yet to try, but know that I will need to if I wish for my own personal project to be completed.

I don't mean any disrespect by this, but you're a sort of lab rat for me :cheeky:

Anyway, I'll throw my spade away before this hole I'm digging gets too deep.

Good luck with the build

cheers

Aaron

[HOUSTON]

Ooh extraordinary project..one to watch

I guess.

[Fritag]

As I don't know resin from plastic padding (the only non polystyrene in my repertoire) I expect to be less obtrusive with this build as we learn together

If I can ever work out the prefix for 8AEF's '303 I intend having a bash at her in her HSS and Yellow trainer bands from '62. My first flight ever. Lost my soul to the low cloud base over Shawbury that day. Oh the glory of flight.

b

B*gg*r. Bill - I thought you'd tell me how to deal with resin.

As to 303. I reckon it can only be WD303 or WG303. I've got the 'Chipmunk - poor man's spitfire' book that Rod contributed to - and it lists all the UK serials. These are the only two chippie 303s that existed as far as I can see. Over to google.

I reckon you and Roland can have a mini GB on chippies.

[Cheshiretaurus]

Looking forward to this have that Airfix JP5 in the stash

[Fritag]

I would stay away from the warpaint as a reference source.

Selwyn

Agreed that the cockpit pictures are useless and misleading. I've got my doubts about the plans in it too - more of which in my next update. But I've had it fo years - just as a read. I'm not sure what else is out there though.

[Fritag]

Before making a proper start on these kits I need to get some idea of whether there are any major accuracy issues - I'm not a rivet counter but correcting obvious stuff is part of the fun right? and I need to get to the bottom of the cockpit colours before I can do much of anything.

It's apparent that some JPs's had all black cockpits (like the one in Keef's Cosford photos) and some has all grey cockpits (save for the coaming).

I think it may be that the T5A was all grey - but I'm not sure and I think it may be early marks and possibly even T3s that were black - but again I'm not sure.

I've also seen photos of some T3 or T3A types that have a grey instrument panel and black sidewalls. See what I mean


(Ta Keef)





Confusing eh? It doesn't help that most of the photographs on the web are of civilianised aircraft.

What I am sure of is that the T3As and T5As that I flew definitely had grey instrument panels and I think I remember them (or at least the T5A) having grey side walls.

I found this old photo in an album showing the cardboard cockpit cut out we were given during T3A groundschool to learn our checks on:


(remember this chaps?)

Isn't that quaint and old fashioned? I've got a feeling that such things will be computarised and interactive these days........

Anyway - it seems to suggest that not only the panel but also the central column and side walls were grey.

I'm going to take a trip down to Newark Air Museum asap - maybe this Saturday and see if I can bum a look in the cockpit of T3A XM383 that they have there (thanks for the heads up Tim - like you I do have XM383 in my log book - I did 5 trips in it) so I can confirm one way or another.

Coincidently when I was looking at the Air Museum web site I found that they have a Jaguar cockpit from XX753 - which is the Jaguar in which I did my first Jag solo way back in December 84 - might try and bum a look in that as well.

One thing I do know is that the colours on the CMR photo-etched instrument panels are wrong. This has an overall grey panel but a the large central panel in black (I'll post a photo later to show what I mean). This is wrong for the T3As I flew and unfortunately very obvisouly wrong even in 1/72. Dunno what I'll do about it yet. More thinking to do.

Ooops by Edit. Did CMR a disservice there: See what I mean:

I was right about the central panel being black (no 1) - BUT I should have looked more closely at the fret - cos there is a seperate grey centre panel on the fret (no 10) to put over the black bit!. Doh! Sorry CMR (and Eduard). Looks pretty darned good when you compare it with my cardboard cut out. Note to self - concentrate more!!!!

I also know already that the canopy on the Airfix T5 is wrong in two respects.

Firstly the front screen has a very obvious moulded external central vertical bar. Thus:



Wheras on the full size article I think the bar is internal:

(this is me BTW - In formation (NOT))

Also the solid rear section of the canopy is definitely wrong. Compare the angle between the kit canopy and the plans (and also the photo above):



I think there are some issues with the accuracy of these plans (more later) but in this regard they are correct.

I'll post some thoughts I've had about the outline accuracy of the kits later on...

Steve

Edited August 7, 2013 by Fritag

[kiwitrogg]

My waters tell me that this is going to be one of those threads I'll be referring to for JP bits'n'bobs in the future.

Watching with interest.

Cheers

Gaz

[perdu]

looks like a canopy ripe for moulding off after Milliputting the inner bits, I wonder what the Matchbox Strikemaster canopy looked like, I just can't remember from when I built mine.

Blob both halves together with M'put then make your modifications to the outside with impunity

(and a small tidy file too)

Yup this looks like another archiverey thread, do we need to ask Mike to make the Chippy "so" as well as this one or is there a more esoteric "thingy" we need to do?

Black magic and computery stuff, all the same to me...

[Dandaire]

Wheras on the full size article I think the bar is internal:

I have worked quite a lot on the civilianised JP5's and can confirm the centre windscreen frame is internal and supports the standby compass and the framing for the G meter. Hope that helps?

Regards,

Dan.

[milktrip]

Hi Steve,

Don't know if this will help but Pavla have a cockpit and canopy set for the airfix strikemaster which you could maybe use on your JP T5.

http://www.internetmodeler.com/artman/uploads/1/DPP_0010.JPG

It's hard to tell from some pics if the rear solid section is in the correct position. I'm certain I still have one, albeit cut up, somewhere in the abyss of my garage. I was going to us it on an Omani strikemaster I built, but ended up using the airfix kit part rather than the pavla one (had a dilemma with the canopy frosting over on this, buts that another story). Anyway, I'll see if I can find the pavla canopy.

IIRC I think the frames on the pavla canopy are raised too (they look like it in the photo link above) which might be of no use to you?

Cheers

Aaron

[Rhino]

Hi Fritag

For a heads up on building a resin kit, here'e what I tend to do (having built a number of them myself).

On a small kit the fuselage can be joined using the thick super glue as it is slower to cure. Give the mating surfaces a light rub with wet and dry. It is important to give the components a good wash with soapy water (I find fairy liquid is good, but not anything for washing hands as the moisturisor in them is oily).

Small components can be assembled first and washed after. Etched brass is normally OK to attach after washing the kit. For larger models (1/72nd scale transports) I prefer to use 5 minute araldite as that is tougher to hold together than super glue.

If you need to do any rubing down to fill in joins, remember the resin is softer than plastic kits so rubs down quicker.

The model should be no problem, and the CMR range is very good generally.

Good luck

Ted

[Fritag]

I have worked quite a lot on the civilianised JP5's and can confirm the centre windscreen frame is internal and supports the standby compass and the framing for the G meter. Hope that helps?

Regards,

Dan.

Sure does. Thanks Dan. BTW (whistles innocently, puts hands in pockets and glances away) you haven't got any cockpit photos of the JP5A have you?

Hi Steve,

Don't know if this will help but Pavla have a cockpit and canopy set for the airfix strikemaster which you could maybe use on your JP T5.

IIRC I think the frames on the pavla canopy are raised too (they look like it in the photo link above) which might be of no use to you?

Cheers

Aaron

Cheers Aaron. I've now had a looks at the Pavla set on t'interweb. The instrument panel is wrong for a T5A as are the seats - but the canopy and other bits and bobs may be useful. One to bear in mind I think.

Hi Fritag

For a heads up on building a resin kit, here'e what I tend to do (having built a number of them myself).

Good luck

Ted

Ah. Thanks Ted. I was hoping that someone knowledgeable would help me out.

[crobinsonh]

Hi Steve,

I, for one are certainly looking forward to this thread. I have the CMR Jet Provost and started a thread earlier in the year - it ground to a halt as 1) my energy moved to the Airfix Tiffie and 2) there is a problem on the underside of the intakes. I confirmed this by looking at the 4 Provosts and Bruntingthorpe and whilst it is not unsurmountable I just ran out of steam so to speak. I will look to continue this kit later this year and I am not clear yet whether I am going to fix the problem or just build as is.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234933395-cmr-172nd-jet-provost/?hl=%2Bcmr+%2Bjet+%2Bprovost

[Miggers]

He-hee,here we go.

[Fritag]

Hi Steve,

I, for one are certainly looking forward to this thread. I have the CMR Jet Provost and started a thread earlier in the year - it ground to a halt as 1) my energy moved to the Airfix Tiffie and 2) there is a problem on the underside of the intakes. I confirmed this by looking at the 4 Provosts and Bruntingthorpe and whilst it is not unsurmountable I just ran out of steam so to speak. I will look to continue this kit later this year and I am not clear yet whether I am going to fix the problem or just build as is.

I was following that thread with interest along with your piston provost and wondered why you stopped. Looking forward to it starting again I see what you mean about that intake or whatever - I hadn't spotted that:

It's on the 3:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/Hunting-P-84-Jet/2249991/L/&sid=b3c7af4b25d7dac691f439502fd53f92

But not the 5:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/BAC-84-Jet/2243292/L/&sid=b3c7af4b25d7dac691f439502fd53f92

Here they are side by side:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Hunting-P-84-Jet/2212511/L/&sid=b3c7af4b25d7dac691f439502fd53f92

And as you say - not reproduced by CMR.

Looks more like a vent than an intake given its orientation. Engine/intake related at a guess given its location and the fact the engine is different on the 5 (although its also present on the 4 - which also had a bigger engine) - or maybe something to do with the cockpit climate - different on the 5 (but not the 4) cos only the 5 is pressurised?

I guess it can be scraped out with a blade or chisel. Need to be careful though.

Thanks for the heads up. You will let me know if you spot anything else?

[Fritag]

Now then. I've been trying to check the shape/accuracy of the kits. Obviously I didn't do a good job seeing as I missed the missing vents that crobinsonh has just pointed out!

I started with the plans in the Warpaint guide (albeit with a bit of scepticism seeing as I don't really know their provenence).

Both wings looked ok:

3A wings

5A wings

The 3A fuselage looked ok. The top of the fin needs to be rounded a bit more - but not bad.

The 5A fin by contrast was too rounded and a bit too tapered:

However the 5A fuselage was horrible - way too long. Alarm bells ringing........

So - back to basics.

A bit of internet research achieved a consensus from a few sources that the 3/3A was 32'5" long - which is 9.88m - which at 1/72 scale is 137mm. Measured the CMR fuselage and - 137mm. Good.

Ditto for the 5/5A - and this time it was 34' long which is 10.36m and at 1/72 scale = 144mm. Measured the Airfix fuselage and ....... 144mm.

So I measured the plans - and the 5/5A came out at 141.5 mm. Confused now.

So. I scanned some side on photos and used Bill's method of pasting a Jpeg into a Word doc and scaling it to size.

So. JP3 photo - 137mm long:

Pretty good. Now I'm confident that the plans of the 3/3A are ok and that the CMR profile is pretty good. Also confirmed that the fin is a tad too square.

The JP5 photo - 144 mm long.

Pretty good fit. So I'm losing confidence in the plans - at least as far as the 5/5A.

More internet research and I find that Swords aviation flies the JP5 prototype XS230 (G-VIVM) (originally converted from a T4) and give the length of the prototype as dimensions 32'8" = 10.26m 142mm at 1/72. So the prototype is shorter! (don't know why).

So I gets a photo of the prototype and size it to 142mm:

And it looks just like it did when I put the Airfix fuselage on the plan.

Anyways. I now think that the plans in the Warpaint book are wrong for the JP5/5A in that the fuselage is too short - and that they may have been based on the prototype fuselage rather than a production one - and that the Airfix kit is correct.

Phew. Well it kept me out of mischief for a bit!!!

[Martian]

Looking forward to seeing some plastic/resin getting cut on these two!

Martin