trumpeter/hobbyboss bad press? are they this bad

[Smiffy]

A nice varied selection. I must admit, I was tempted to get the big P-61 myself. I decided that the super size would be too much of an issue though, so went with 48th GWH instead.

Have fun with your purchases.

[stringbag]

We as modellers should be grateful of companies like this/them bringing out what they do and the scales they bring them out in, regardless of a slight inaccuracy..!

My sentiment exactly Radleigh. We've never had it so good..

Why can't we stop bitching about the rain and just enjoy the rainbow.

Chris.

[Panzer Vor!!!]

Because somebody has to p### on your parade

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

The problem here gents, is that The T/HB collective have made too many mistakes to be trustworthy. Plainly & simply you just don't know what you are going to get when you pony up for a model from them. In my book they have tipped over into the "most liable to be inaccurate" column from the "possibly not quite right" one.

Now I know that many errors that I might think are "glaring" say in the F8F Bearcat models will not be of the least interest, or be spotted by a lot of modellers, but they are there.

The kind of errors that if you release, hmm lets say a Spitfire with, you would be pilloried to the deepest level of hell with, on here and everywhere.

And that is the point - not a whole lot of people can spot errors in an F8F, or A3D, Sea Fury, Vampire or Tornado or F-80 ( hmm) but they are there. But WE as purchasers should expect the model company to have done some reasonable research - just to get basic shape right at least. That is not the case here.

In my book it is shoddy, plain and simple. Its quite obvious they don't actually care, because any company with an iota of common decency would have tried to address this by now ( and if you cant find fluent english speakers or writers in China, you aint trying hard enough). I find this frustrating because the fit and detail of models is excellent, so why cant they make them accurate?

Why? Because it costs money to do research, thats why, and I bet their business model says to spend as little as possible where you can. That is the insult: These kits ain't cheap here in the west anymore. But to me this says there's an attitude of, "ah what the feck - it looks about right, make sure its all recessed panel lines and the bits fit, and go sell em".

And before anyone says well perhaps the West isn't their target market - well that says they must care even less for their own home buyers if they think they can palm dross off on them.

I believe that when you buy a model, the gratitude ( a word that seems we should feel to this company) should be the other way round. We are the buyers after all, but what do we get? Release after release that show the same level of commitment to customers, which is LOW, VERY LOW. If gratitude is for dogs, well this dog need a good beating.

T/HB have the ability to become one of the finest model makers in the world but they need to learn a few lessons in humility. We as buyers need to teach them that they cannot get away with moulding inaccurate kits, some of which are so inaccurate that you don't need to be an "hexpurt" to notice. The easy way is don't buy their models.

All model companies release some crap kits, but alas T/HB seem to have a proven track record in continually doing so.

Jonners

[Albeback52]

Well, I never waste my valuable modelling time by comparing model parts with photos, plans etc. Therefore, unless there is something glaringly obviously wrong that can be spotted by a purely visual inspection of the parts, every kit I buy is as accurate as I want it to be. If an "error" can't be spotted by a visual inspection then,surely logic dictates that if you DO spend time researching & correcting your work won't be seen either? Why then put all that work into something that won't be noticed without a forensic examination? That, to me, seems to be an exercise in futility.! If I'm going to damned, then I'd rather be damned for what I've been seen to have done rather than what I've NOT been seen to have done .

All down to personal choice of course. If others want to follow a different path & strive for as near complete accuracy, then I respect that choice. I really think Chris & Radleigh have hit the nail on the head. In any case, how many modellers actually give a damn one way or the other?

As for the oft maligned Trumpyboss kits? Well, I will happily build any of them regardless. They are generally very well engineered and detailed. That, to me is what matters above all. Now, before anybody accuses me of condoning shoddy research (or lack thereof), I'm not. Given that there ARE modellers for whom accuracy is all, then I do believe manufacturers have a duty of care as it were to produce a model that is as accurate as can reasonably be made. In that context, I think Jon's point is equally valid.

However, accuracy or otherwise has never bothered me one way or another. I will cheerfully continue to use my meagre skills in order to get the best result I can from what is provided. That has been my personal approach to the hobby for 45 years. I won't change now. I really have more important things to worry about!

Allan

Edited July 17, 2013 by Albeback52

[Radleigh]

big quote....

Jonners

Fair point Jonners, but this is business after all, the majority will import them in still and the majority will buy off the importers/shops that sell them, build the kit and be *happy* with it...and that's just this country.

The Trumpeter 1/32nd F8F that I'm going to be starting for the Splendid Cats GB, I only have one nark and that is the poor exhausts, no biggy as it still looks like a Bearcat to me and many others when built? (what are the errors btw I don't know? I did ask but little response ( LINKY )

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Well, I never waste my valuable modelling time by comparing model parts with photos, plans etc. Therefore, unless there is something glaringly obviously wrong that can be spotted by a purely visual inspection of the parts, every kit I buy is as accurate as I want it to be. If an "error" can't be spotted by a visual inspection then,surely logic dictates that if you DO spend time researching & correcting your work won't be seen either? Why then put all that work into something that won't be noticed without a forensic examination? That, to me, seems to be an exercise in futility.! If I'm going to damned, then I'd rather be damned for what I've been seen to have done rather than what I've NOT been seen to have done .

All down to personal choice of course. If others want to follow a different path & strive for as near complete accuracy, then I respect that choice. I really think Chris & Radleigh have hit the nail on the head. In any case, how many modellers actually give a damn one way or the other? Very few I suspect although, given the strident comments expressed often on this forum by familiar (and regular ) contributors they are clearly a very vocal minority! They are of course entitled to their opinions.

As for the oft maligned Trumpyboss kits? Well, I will happily build any of them regardless. They are generally very well engineered and detailed. That, to me is what matters above all.

Allan

The point is Allan is that the errors are quite glaring a lot of the time - I'll leave the Bearcat out as its full of errors that are harder to spot but make it not look like a Bearcat.

And sadly I feel you are right - it seems most modellers don't give a monkeys about accuracy, so long as it fits and has nice detail: We see this in many magazine reviews nowadays. Well thats fine with me; buildability and detail make for enjoying the hobby. But I fear we may be heading for the Pastor Niemuller school of consequences here - if no ones stands up now - then who will be there later, say when they release your favourite all time ever model and it looks nothing like it should.

People who are self confessed "not bothered with accuracy it looks like an xxx to me", modellers seem to think that anyone who is, is somehow spoiling their fun by telling them unpalatable truths about their models: Well if you ain't bothered why should you care?

And second, I'd like anyone to be able to go buy a model and sit down, stick it together and have a reasonable idea that what you have is a proper scale replica of the real thing, not just some parody. If that means that I and a few other "familiar" few need to shout from the tops of the battlements to get model companies like T/HB to improve, then we damn well will. You might not like the noise, but one day you might just like the result.

Cheers

Jonners

[drdave]

Crikey

First they are paying the PLA. Now if we don't complain about in accuracy we are as bad as failing to act to speak out about Nazism!

It's a plastic kit.

But then again this wheel cannot be squared, as acres of inter web attest.

Edited July 17, 2013 by drdave

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Crickey

First they are paying the PLA. Now if we don't complain about in accuracy we are as bad as failing to act to speak out about Nazism!

It's a plastic kit.

But then again this wheel cannot be squared, as acres of inter web attest.

Crickey? Predibitve text sloblocks

Well I realise the Niemuller analogy was a tad loaded, but i couldnt think of anything better. Its still germaine ( forgive the pun).

Jonners

[Mike]

When you have discussions of this type, you have to realise that neither side are wrong, and that being dismissive of the other "side" is the only wrongness (is that even a word?). People who value accuracy over everything are as right as those that value an enjoyable build over everything. It's their hobby, and they're entitled to do it their way... for fun and relaxation.

Trying to get someone from one camp to move to yours is futile, questionable and much more likely to cause a row than convert everyone to your way of thinking. If modellers let other modellers enjoy their hobby their way, there would be a lot less butting of heads on modelling forums.

[Panzer Vor!!!]

Well said father mike here end the first lesson

[JohnT]

As my granny used to say "Play bonny children, play bonny"

[Ghostbase]

Been checking reviews and posts on forums but some number of people are really giving these 2 Chinese companies really bad reviews and press.

Are they actually this bad, do they have any good kits and is it worth me spending £100+ on a 1/32 su-25a Frogfoot, or a A-7E corsair for example.

The first Hobbyboss kits which I just *had* to have was their 1/48th McDonnell F3H Demon which came in F3H-2 and F3H-2M boxings. Looking back at the reviews here and on other forums there was generally nothing but praise for the release of a rare subject which made up into an accurate and detailed model. I have yet to make them however I have no regrets about spending £30 upwards for each of the kits. I am mainly a fan of first and second generation jets as well as Vietnam participants in 1/48th and I have since purchased the Trumpy RA-5C Vigilante, both FJ-4 Furys, two F-100 Super Sabres, the F-14B Tomcat, and the F-111A and EF-111A 'Varks.

I also have all the Hobbyboss 1/48th A-7 Corsair II releases and this kit really did get badly maligned in many quarters, to some extent with justification; the forward fuselage is noticeably incorrect in shape and the wing tanks are just quite appalling! However I decided I could live with that after reading some of the more level-headed reviews and I am especially happy to have a 'Twosair' TA-7C in the stash. I have put the A-7A together and it is a nice build, just didn't put the wing tanks on it!

I think that some of the bad reviews and press go well over the top, here and elsewhere, so before purchasing a 'Trumpyboss' kit I look for reviews by writers who have a more sensible and level-headed track record and make my decision based on them.

Would I spend over £100? Well no to be honest but I don't do 1/32nd anyway. However I did spend an unprecedented £52 a couple of days ago on the 1/48th Trumpeter A3D-2 Skywarrior and I have to say I am very impressed with it, it also seems to have quite a few unused bits and pieces which suggest that other variants might be possible from the box.

So I don't think Trumpeter and Hobbyboss are as bad as some suggest, you just need to make sure you are a well-informed buyer before making your purchase.

Michael

[Arachnid]

Factoid: Airfix are planning to release a 1/24th Vulcan so they can keep paying The Beduff Republican Army aka BRA

Edited July 17, 2013 by hawker

[Old Man]

People who value accuracy over everything are as right as those that value an enjoyable build over everything. It's their hobby, and they're entitled to do it their way... for fun and relaxation.

Often, Sir, they are the same people, just on different subjects. I offer myself as an example. One project I am working on is making an accurate R.E. 8 out the old Airfix 1/72 kit of the type. To say MAJOR surgery is required is an understatement, but I have an abiding interest in Great War reconnaissance types, and in the R.E. 8. So I really want to get this right, and am going to great lengths to do so. One project I just completed is a P-40N, the Academy kit; I have no idea if it is absolutely accurate in shape and such --- I have an interest in the theater where this one operated but not a great interest in the type itself, so 'looks like one to me' is enough, and it was a lot of fun to put something together that fit and needed no extra work.

I suspect many modellers have this sort of split personality, with different projects bringing out the different sides....

[Mike]

You're not supposed

Often, Sir, they are the same people, just on different subjects. I offer myself as an example. One project I am working on is making an accurate R.E. 8 out the old Airfix 1/72 kit of the type. To say MAJOR surgery is required is an understatement, but I have an abiding interest in Great War reconnaissance types, and in the R.E. 8. So I really want to get this right, and am going to great lengths to do so. One project I just completed is a P-40N, the Academy kit; I have no idea if it is absolutely accurate in shape and such --- I have an interest in the theater where this one operated but not a great interest in the type itself, so 'looks like one to me' is enough, and it was a lot of fun to put something together that fit and needed no extra work.

I suspect many modellers have this sort of split personality, with different projects bringing out the different sides....

A very good point, although sadly we're all now going to need therapy for our personality disorders

[AngloSaxon]

In model show competitions, do the judges mark their subject on the actual accuracy of the model dimension wise? Or, do they mark it on the representation of the model with regard to paint schemes, weathering etc. Or, do they actually mark on both and you have to declare the manufacturer so they can judge on that too?

Just interested.

Mike D.

[John Laidlaw]

Mike, on 17 Jul 2013 - 4:16 PM, said:

A very good point, although sadly we're all now going to need therapy for our personality disorders

I suggest learning to enjoy and embrace the fundamental dichotomy - much easier, and far less expensive .

[Dermo245]

I'm currently building my first HobbyBoss kit, the 1/72 SH-60B Seahawk for the Helo II GB here.

I've read it has some accuracy issues in places (like their Lynx kits apparently), but for me, it fits well together, has decent interior detail, looks like a Seahawk, and I bought it for a reasonable price - all important considerations for me. My next kit is their F-14B (also 1/72) which has got positive reviews by those who know their stuff. I know it's not a patch on the Hasegawa kits but at a third of the price, I know which I'll be buying based on my budget.

Do these brands get a hard time? If it's justified, then constructive criticism is warranted I feel. Come to think of it, I could say the same about Tamiya re-boxing the Italeri F-14 under their label, which personally I think is very unfair, given the association many will have with the Tamiya brand and the kit they're passing off as their own.

Just my

[Doug Rogers]

The admittedly simplistic way I look at it is;

If you don't mind them, buy them.

If you don't like them, don't buy them.

Don't beat on the people that have a different opinion, just model on!

(Going to bed now after a beer too many).

Why can't we all just get along?

[Laurent]

Why? Because it costs money to do research, thats why, and I bet their business model says to spend as little as possible where you can.

I think that it's modifying their business model that is costly, not in terms of money but in terms of ability to change. Tr/HB/KH are like a supersonic aircrafts: they can't turn tight because they go too fast. They should slow down first. There are two letters in R&D. Currently, they're have only a D department. Hiring full-time R(esearchers) is not necessary. I'm sure that many knowledgeable people would love to help companies designing kits that would satisfy not 60-70% of the customers but 95%. These people can provide reference material or validate the reference material the manufacturer intended to use, do measurements and can help validating CAD models (CAD designers may miss certain features of the subject they're trying to depict because they're not familiar with it). The problem is that the manufacturers would need to change the way they work and that's what may be the real difficulty. Do they want to ? I'm not quite sure yet...

And before anyone says well perhaps the West isn't their target market - well that says they must care even less for their own home buyers if they think they can palm dross off on them.

I don't think that Chinese modeller are particularly fond of Tr/HB stuff. I've read that the GWH MiG-29 sold quite fast in China.

[Admiral Puff]

As to the philosophy underpinning Trumpy/HB's operations - Not Going There!!

My experience - some of their kits are brilliant, some just plain bloody awful, some neither fish nor fowl nor good red herring. I had a pair of 1:72 Lightnings which I ended up selling - couldn't face the nausea of getting them right. Ditto the pair of 1:48 C-47s, which don't stack up against the old Monogram kit. I still have a 1:32 "Lightning" (and I use the quotes advisedly) which, one day, I'll pluck up the courage to try turning into a model of a Lightning with the help of Stewart Hargrave's drawings. My problem is that whenever I look at it I'm struck by the thought that life's too short! The Hawker Sea Hawk, on the other hand, is a beauty, as is the Wyvern, and the two 1:350 dreadnoughts (Dreadnought herself and Queen Elizabeth) that I have are superb, if a little overengineered in places.

My only problem with the firm is the lack of consistency in the product. If they can get it right some of the time they should be able to do it pretty well all of the time. Hopefully this will be sorted out eventually. I'm not one to object to a discrepancy of a millimetre here or there, but I won't come at something that's a mere caricature of what it purports to be.

[MikeC]

Anyone who says Trumpeter kits fit well has clearly never built the 1:48 MiG-15 In fact, technically, neither have I because it's one of the few models I've ever given up on and slung in the bin.

[D1fuN0]

If we were to look at this from another angle....

If the thread was opened up to all manufacturers suffering the same 'problem', then world war plastic would errupt, because everyone has their own opinions about whats good and whats not, and unfortunately, a small majority will try to 'tell' you what you should and shouldnt buy. Thats just human nature.

The majority of us poor slob modellers, the kit is the kit. we go home, build it and it goes on the shelf, and probably in most cases, no one ever see's it.

I have never baulked at a kit because of its accuracy, or its shape, or its lack of two micro miniscule rivets...

Im quite happy with my little SIMS (Steve's Independant Modelling Society), if it looks interesting on the box, then I buy it. it gets built, i have a lot of fun building it and it joins its chums on the shelf that span about 5 wars, 80 years and about a dozen countries.

Doesnt matter what names on the box, where its made, who owns it, if i like it, then they get my bucks and i get the enjoyment of building another unique subject.

Steve

[Albeback52]

People who are self confessed "not bothered with accuracy it looks like an xxx to me", modellers seem to think that anyone who is, is somehow spoiling their fun by telling them unpalatable truths about their models: Well if you ain't bothered why should you care?

And second, I'd like anyone to be able to go buy a model and sit down, stick it together and have a reasonable idea that what you have is a proper scale replica of the real thing, not just some parody. If that means that I and a few other "familiar" few need to shout from the tops of the battlements to get model companies like T/HB to improve, then we damn well will. You might not like the noise, but one day you might just like the result.

Cheers

Jonners

Good morning Jon

I really must disagree with you here. Your first comment seems (to me anyway) to be more than a little petulant. Obviously, I can only speak for myself but, I would be grateful if you could enlighten me as to why you seem to think that (as a fully paid up member of the don't care brigade!) that I should think my fun is "spoiled" by the comments of those to whom accuracy is all important? While I do not wish or intend to offend, it seems to me that it is those to whom "accuracy is all" seem to think that THEY are in the right and, that nobody should dare challenge their wisdom?

I have some difficulty in accepting that because, it very much smacks of the "there are two types of modeller" suggestion which has cropped up here before. These two types being (1) enthusiast and, (2) hobbyist with, (2) being defined as those who do not take the hobby as seriously as (1). This is an attitude which I personally consider to be both arrogant and patronising. There are only MODELLERS!. There is no right way or wrong way. There is only the INDIVIDUAL way. We all indulge in the same hobby after all. With 45 years experience under my (ample) belt, I consider myself to be an "enthusiastic hobbyist" but, I do not think I am less of a modeller as a result!

As for "shouting from the battlements"? Well, that is of course your prerogative and, far be it from me to impede you. May I respectfully suggest however that comments like "not liking the noise" are, once again, sounding just a little petulant. As if lesser mortals like me are some form of modelling heretic! . You may care to revisit my post with regard to the comment I made regarding research and accuracy. Believe it or not, I do care but, perhaps not for the same reason. I don't want modellers like yourself to have their fun "spoiled". I simply have more important things to worry about.

Now, it may be that I have misrepresented you entirely and, if that be the case then I apologise unreservedly in advance. I see no reason to change my stance however. This is a friendly disagreement (I hope!!) and, I would be personally delighted to have an opportunity to continue this (with anyone) over a few!!

ps - if anyone wishes to donate any of their "inaccurate" Trumpyboss kits to my favourite charity ( Al's Modelling Foundation) , I will gladly accept!

(Well, worth a try!!)

Allan