Lightningboy2000 Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) I know there's hundreds of questions and answers about the Canberra, but I can't seem to find the answer to this. I have just finished scratch building the wheel bays for the Revell/Matchbox 1/72 PR.9. Now I have looked and found loads of pics on online walkarounds etc, but they all come up with different colors, grey, white, silver. Even a yellowy beige etch color. I'm doing the RAF camo version XH136. Now I'm assuming this was painted silver??? Would that be correct? Thanks. Martin Edited July 20, 2013 by Lightningboy2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 See answers in this thread: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234941413-backdating-a-canberra-pr9-advice-please/?hl=canberra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Hi Martin worms and cans! It could well be silver but I'd be more inclined towards white, I'll dig around and see if I can find a photo or two. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Martin, I've not found a colour photo of 136 but I have some of her sisters around the same time as 136 as in the kit and I'm thinking white wells and legs, for all three except the nose wheel hubs which could be silver. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightningboy2000 Posted July 11, 2013 Author Share Posted July 11, 2013 See answers in this thread: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234941413-backdating-a-canberra-pr9-advice-please/?hl=canberra Excellent reference thanks! That is the same kit isn't it? Mart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightningboy2000 Posted July 11, 2013 Author Share Posted July 11, 2013 Martin, I've not found a colour photo of 136 but I have some of her sisters around the same time as 136 as in the kit and I'm thinking white wells and legs, for all three except the nose wheel hubs which could be silver. John Thanks John, white it's going to be then. Maybe a dirty white! I was looking round your site before I asked, and thought, is that grey or a dirty white. I did have loads of photos of WT333 at Brunty from sheltering under the wing during a rain storm at one of the shows, but I had a mishap with a hard drive full of pics. Accidentally re-partitioned it! Mart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Martin, I've not found a colour photo of 136 but I have some of her sisters around the same time as 136 as in the kit and I'm thinking white wells and legs, for all three except the nose wheel hubs which could be silver. John John and Lightningboy. U/C legs, bays and inside of doors on Aluminium and camo painted PR9's were aluminium painted. However, around 75/76 or so, they started giving the bays an overall coat of a semi-transparent gold coloured laquer. This lasted until the aircraft were given the hemp/LAG scheme. All white undercarriage bays started appearing, firstly on the T17's in December 1978. Lightningboy. The correct colour for the undersurface of three tone camo PR9's was Medium Sea Grey. LAG undersurfaces is incorrect. Thats what AOC Middle East decreed and that is what they were painted at SAFI. John. I do not have a Photobucket account any more so I am sending you a couple of shots (3 in fact) illustrating the gold laquer (PR9) and white bays (T17 WK111). Would you put them up on this thread please. TIA Dennis W Robinson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 . John. I do not have a Photobucket account any more so I am sending you a couple of shots (3 in fact) illustrating the gold laquer (PR9) and white bays (T17 WK111). Would you put them up on this thread please. TIA Dennis W Robinson No problem Dennis send them on, I'll post them up. I assume this gold lacquer is the same as the one used on the Lightning? It's very difficult to tell from the B&W photos I have of 136 what the colour is, it the same old Canberra conundrum she's a mysterious lady! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 (edited) No problem Dennis send them on, I'll post them up. I assume this gold lacquer is the same as the one used on the Lightning? It's very difficult to tell from the B&W photos I have of 136 what the colour is, it the same old Canberra conundrum she's a mysterious lady! John Sent to both your addy and the SIG's John. Yes, the gold laquer was the same as on a few Lightnings and also some Hunters, Scimitars, Buccaneers and a couple of Argosy's. It came out, originally, in the mid sixties, declined and then reappeared very briefly in the early seventies - mostly on Canberras both with matt black and aluminium painted gear bays. XH174, the shot I sent you, was fairly unique in that she had matt black bays but gold coloured legs and the inside of the gear doors. Others had completely gold bays and legs, over aluminium. Dennis Edited July 12, 2013 by sloegin57 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Thanks Dennis, I'd totally forgotten about that, we had talked about it before. I'll post the photos the fantastic photos as soon as I can. Gold over silver would look rather splendid! Looking at the photos I have of 136 in 1982 as she is in the kit with the tail art, I'd still say grubby white, or possibly Aluminium. I will post a photo of her later to see what you all think? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 John and Lightningboy. U/C legs, bays and inside of doors on Aluminium and camo painted PR9's were aluminium painted. However, around 75/76 or so, they started giving the bays an overall coat of a semi-transparent gold coloured laquer. This lasted until the aircraft were given the hemp/LAG scheme. All white undercarriage bays started appearing, firstly on the T17's in December 1978. Lightningboy. The correct colour for the undersurface of three tone camo PR9's was Medium Sea Grey. LAG undersurfaces is incorrect. Thats what AOC Middle East decreed and that is what they were painted at SAFI. Dennis W Robinson Aha! Many thanks. This is the right answer: white is the bane of the brush painter's life. The Medium Sea Grey wrinkle is a surprise. What's SAFI, please? Google gives many most improbable possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 I forgot about this on my site, http://ipmscanberrasig.webs.com/apps/forums/topics/show/8211478-revell-pr9 The best thing about the kit is the transfers(decals) it's just a pity they didn't spend a bit of cash on the kit! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Aha! Many thanks. This is the right answer: white is the bane of the brush painter's life. The Medium Sea Grey wrinkle is a surprise. What's SAFI, please? Google gives many most improbable possibilities. At the risk of digressing slightly:- SAFI = Number 103 MU detachment RAF Safi, Malta. Mostly manned by RAF(Malta) personell, they did most of the overhauls for Cyprus and Malta including repainting the aircraft. They were a marvellous bunch of lads. Safi is, I believe, now part of Luqa International's main runway. White can be brush painted Seahawk if you follow the lead of generations of RAF Riggers, Painters and Dopers, Surface finishers - call us what you will (as long as its friendly). Pure white is a very translucent paint as you will know when trying to brush paint it. It's also a pain when spraying. Riggers back in the 1920's and 1930's learned that adding a bit of black to the paint helped it cover much more easily. For some reason the black paint within the white "thickens" it if you will. This applied to most RAF aircraft right up to the 1950's and even up to the early 60's. I was taught it at Training School back in the late 50's. If you want your white to be "whiter that white", then add a touch of Blue. My training notes state that "a 6 inch brush full of black or blue to half a gallon of white should do the trick." To answer you query ref MSG, I'll quote from an the draft of an unpublished article that I submitted to most of the modelling mags many years ago:- "CAMOUFLAGE INTRODUCED - XH167 The first PR9 to be camouflaged was XH167 of 39 Squadron at RAF Safi in July 1965. The 103 MU Det at Safi had already repainted at least two of the Akrotiri Strike Wings aircraft in the new colours, Gloss Dark Sea Grey/Gloss Dark Green upper surfaces with Gloss Grey 9-05-BS2660 - the precursor of Light Aircraft Grey, prior to June 65 and returned them to Cyprus. Although I had not seen it, there had been a brief report in a Middle East Air Force Engineering Review to the effect that the new under surface grey stood out strongly at medium and high altitude, was visible from miles away and had a strong yellowish hue. It seems that there was no concern over this as the Canberras at Akrotiri and the Hunters at Khormaksar spent most of their lives at low level. According to my notes jotted down soon after, Harding went on to say that the HQ MEAF had got wind of this and had instructed that a PR9 be camouflaged but with Medium Sea Grey, as was the AOC’s and Unit Commanding Officers right under the terms of the DCI and AP 119-0601 (my Italics) under surfaces and suitable trials be held known as Exercise “Dazzle”. The staff at Safi knew that the PR’s were to be camouflaged but as the drawings had not yet arrived from the UK, they adapted the existing Canberra camouflage drawings for the upper surface of the mainplanes and tailplane and the scheme for twin engined aircraft from the AP 119-0601 (AP2656A re-numbered) for the fuselage. As you will see from the two photographs of XH167 attached, she initially carried the then existing Canberra pattern on the main planes, with the fuselage and especially the fin taken from the AP. As you are ware, the eventual PR9 pattern was a mirror image of the standard Canberra pattern – why – I don’t know. The MSG under surface must have proved successful as the second aircraft to be camouflaged at SAFI, 13’s XH131, in January 1966, had it applied as well as the “official” PR9 upper surface pattern. The 39 Sqdn badge applied to ‘167 was the same as the one applied to the aluminium painted aircraft and noted above. XH167 wore that unique scheme until 8/1/67 when she was damaged on take off by an inadvertent canopy jettison. She was quite badly damaged and when I left the Island in late 1967, she was still at RAF Safi being repaired. By that time over two thirds of the PR9 fleet had been camouflaged, either at Safi or at Shorts in the UK. All had Medium Sea Grey undersurfaces." If you PM me your addy Seahawk I'll forward shots of 167 together with a shot of a PR9 with both LAG and MSG on it plus a shot of a PR7 showing the "yellow" in Gloss Grey 9-05-BS2660. HTH Dennis W Robinson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 At last Dennis's photos. And lastly, a photo of the actual PR.9 in the kit at the time the "tail" art was added during an exercise. I wish they were in colour! This is the best one sowing the main gear I have another one that shows a close up of the nose gear, which looks like it my be grey? with silver hubs. This isn't my photo so I've cropped it for posting, I hope it's ok? John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kari Lumppio Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Hello! Swedish Air Force used two Canberras or Tp 52 as was their code in Flygvapnet was. These were former WH711 and WH905 ( http://www.avrosys.nu/aircraft/Transport/267tp52/267Tp52.htm ). I have seen and photographed the individuals in museums and they both have black main wheel well. Don't remember offhand the nose wheel bay. It is likely I have no photos nor memories of the colour because of the awkward approach to said cavity. Why black wheel well? What is the history of WH711 and WH905? I don't think the colour is Swedish invention because the planes are and were silver overall. Cheers, Kari PS Won't be around to answer for next two weeks or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Hello! Swedish Air Force used two Canberras or Tp 52 as was their code in Flygvapnet was. These were former WH711 and WH905 ( http://www.avrosys.nu/aircraft/Transport/267tp52/267Tp52.htm ). I have seen and photographed the individuals in museums and they both have black main wheel well. Don't remember offhand the nose wheel bay. It is likely I have no photos nor memories of the colour because of the awkward approach to said cavity. Why black wheel well? What is the history of WH711 and WH905? I don't think the colour is Swedish invention because the planes are and were silver overall. Cheers, Kari PS Won't be around to answer for next two weeks or so. Hi Kari Both Canberra's were built as B.2's for the RAF. WH711 by English Electric Preston, she was awaiting collection 17-03-1953. She served with 149,88,213 Sqn's before being sold to BAC for conversion to TP.52 WH905 by Short Belfast awaiting collection 29-01-1954, she served with 207,115 Sqn's &the station flight RAF Binbrook. sold to BAC. . They were converted to Tp52 standard by Boulton & Paul Ltd in 1960. As for the wheel well colour, there is no, or at least as far as I can tell, any hard and fast rule for using black or aluminium. I'm guessing it was done according to what the currant edict was regarding such things and would apply to all aircraft in the RAF? Dennis! What I can say is that Shorts appear to have favoured black for Canberra wheel wells. As for the two Tp52's if the main bays are black then it's a good bet that the nose well will be too. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 I've found a colour photo of 136 with a 29 Sqn. zap the wheel well going by the doors are white at this stage at least. With silver nose wheel hubs. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightningboy2000 Posted July 20, 2013 Author Share Posted July 20, 2013 Dennis & John, never expected to get such superb info. Many thanks for sharing those details, I reckon there's quite a few people out there who have recently bought this cheaply from Modelzone like myself who are trying to get it spot on. Never trust Revell color callouts. They re-package some old classics and do produce some lovely new tools, but never seem to present well researched color schemes, without me having to question the instructions. Thanks again, this thread is now top notch Canberra reference! Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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