ASR Spitfires revisited

[Peter Roberts]

I am researching 275, 276 and 277 Squadron Spitfires, mainly IICs but also VBs.

Any leads on where I might find aircraft code/serial number tie ups? Any Air Britain Publications worth a scrutiny? Websites?

Doesnt seem to be much info along these lines in the section of ORBs that I have seen, but hopeful a few may have been identified in published works.

I have the usual suspects - BA-U, BL591 and AQ-C, P8131, but hope to identify others. Any help or leads appreciated.

TIA

PR

[NZKIWI]

Vb BA-Z AD366

11c BA-T R6719

Vb AQ-O EN841

[Peter Roberts]

NZKIWI - Thank you! Great start.

I am particularly interested in the following at 277 Sqn -

P7734, P7911, P8022,

and I believe P7775, P7605, P8322, P7376, P8261, P8020, P7628

PR

[Ed Russell]

1. Maybe of interest - ex NAA transcript - no code letter known at this stage.

While orbiting dinghies off Dunkirk under control of 15081G.C.I., on 5 April 1945 on an ASR sortie, FO N MacDonald (RAAF 412616) flying Spitfire Vb BM 414 of 276 Sqn complained of a rough running engine and asked for a vector to base. Black smoke was emitted from the exhausts and the prop seemed to be windmilling. Flames began to appear around the air intake beneath the fuselage and black smoke started to emit continuously from the exhaust and engine cowling. The aircraft went into a steep dive from 1500 feet pulled up sharply at 50 feet went over onto its back, lost height and hit the sea. Pilot KIA.

2. Flintham gives AD366 as BA-Z but Rawlings lists it as BA-C

Edited July 6, 2013 by Ed Russell

[Seahawk]

The best source I can think of would be John Rawlings' book on Coastal, Support and Special Squadrons of the RAF and Their Aircraft. Another possiblity is Norman Franks' book Another Kind of Courage: although I believe this focuses on Walrus ops by UK-based ASR squadrons, there may be a reference or two to Spitfire codes and serials.

I'm away from my references at the mo. If no-one's had a rummage for you by Wednesday, I will.

[Ed Russell]

277 - IIa P8179 BA-T; Vb BM570 BA-Z;

278 -Vb K6965 MY-P Vb AD562 MY-V

[Peter Roberts]

Thanks Seahawk - I'll chase those books up, appreciate the heads up on those.

Thanks Ed, appreciate the links there. I have P/O A K Kelly at 277 Sqn in late 43 and early 44 (later killed in a collision with a Liberator in the N/T with 452) and 'Dicky' Vere as a Flight Commander in May '43. Trying to tie down codes for Kelly's a/c, serials from ORB, as per earlier post. I am yet to research Vere's a/c.

I also have N McDonald and R B Harrison at 275 Sqn in mid-44. Sad to see what happened to McDonald, especially so close to the wars end.

Just hoping to id serial/codes for one of these pilots, hopefully for a IIc, but Vb otherwise. I dont have any of these pilots flying the a/c so far identified, but I am most appreciative of the posts and help - thank you gentlemen,

PR

[Rafwaffe]

Just finished another kind of courage. Searching for ASR Spit codes and serials too and will be following this thread with interest.

These are from Another kind of courage(where the serial has a letter identified for the aircraft):

276 Sqn:

Spitfire IIc

P8131/C

P8565/H

P8674/J

277 Sqn:

P7605/G

P8441/R

P8705/C

AD366/Z (should be 'C'?)

278 Sqn:

R6951/P (should be R6965?)

AD652/V

From bowyer 'aircraft for the many:'

276 Sqn:

BL379/E

BL933/I

BM474/L

EN841/O

278 Sqn:

W3893/U

W3948/N

BL376/Q

BM418/Y

BM491/X

Also from less reputable source:

278 Sqn:

AB981/T

Hope these help, I'm hopeful that this thread may reveal the identities of more ASR spits

(including 4 I've been looking for: P8232, P7321, P7994 and AB975)

Regards,

Alex

[sanguin]

Direct from Rawlings 'Coastal, Support and Special Squadrons' book :

275 Squadron

Spitfire Vb (Jan-April 1943 and April 44-February 45)

BL294; BM448

276 Squadron

Spitfire IIa (April 42-May 43)

P7366; P8131, AQ:C

Spitfire Vb (April 43-Jun 45)

P8565; BL495; EN841

Hurricane II Dec 41-?? 42)

Z3672; BE510

277 Squadron

Spitfire IIa (Dec 42-May May 44)

P8030; P8179, BA:T

Spitfire Vb (May 44- Feb 45)

P8705, BA:C; AD366, BA:Z; BM510

278 Squadron

Spitfire Vb (April 44- Feb 45)

R6965, MY:P; AD562, MY:V

279 Squadron

Hurricane IIC, IV (April 45-Jun 45)

KX180, RL:K; KX878, RL:U; KZ322, RL:S; KZ383, RL:N; LB651

This cites all Spitfires as IIa or Vb; it must be assumed that most or even all of the IIa versions were actually IIc conversions.

This is going to be one of those 'collate the information from a wide range of sources' exercises.

Is it reasonably safe to assume that all ASR Spitfires and Hurricanes had yellow codes after about 1943 or thereabouts?

Early in the war the codes seemed to be dull red (for 277 at least).

John

[brewerjerry]

hi

276sq AQ-O P8727, AQ-I P8667

hurricanes Z3297,Z3394,Z3672,BE510

spit IIc i have no serial for

AQ-A,AQ-K,AQ-L

info from NA/PRO & log books

for 275sq

i have 3330,507,AD475

from log books

above a/c were at harrowbeer

jerry

[brewerjerry]

doh should be Z3298 not 7

jerry

[Edgar]

You might not be aware of one little snippet of information, tucked away in the National Archives; until mid-February 1943, 277 Squadron's codes were dull red, and, when, in January, 1943, they requested that they be allowed to change to yellow, it drew a sharp "Who told you that you could use red?" response from the brasshats, since they were supposed to be able to fight their way out, if necessary, and that meant sky codes. There was a short flurry of signals inside the Air Ministry, with the upshot being that yellow codes and the 12" black stripe under the fuselage, were given the go-ahead, for both Spitfire Squadrons 276 & 277, from 16-2-43. In June 1943, a request was made that all ASR aircraft should have yellow codes, and this was agreed from 24-8-43.

Edgar

[Peter Roberts]

Thank you all. Great info!

Alex, you have made me one very happy camper! P7605 - code G Thank you!

Edgar, VERY nice snippet, thank you for sharing. Really appreciate you sharing your discoveries from Kew, and also really envy your proximity to Kew! Would love to be there and able to help your efforts.

I'll see if I can trawl M&S to get listing of serial numbers for these squadrons and post here.

Again, thank you from a most grateful modeller.

PR

[sanguin]

Edgar, my thanks for that extremely helpful bit of information.

I never really understood why 277 seemed to use red codes (as I and others interpreted photos) but other ASR units seemingly didn't.

The switch to yellow was not apparently completed all at once, some aircraft seemed to continue with their existing sky or red codes until quite late in 1943 from the few images I have seen.

The thought of an ASR Lysander, Walrus or a fairly high-houred Anson fighting their way out of trouble is quite boggling; even a Spitfire II or V in 1943 was not really competitive.

Their Airships assuming sky codes implied 'keep off' fighting prowess for a Walrus must have seriously terrified the Luftwaffe....

John

[brewerjerry]

Hi

Some 276SQ a/c had red codes as well,

so maybe a memo had been issued ?

or a memo was interpreted wrongly by both squadrons ?

cheers

Jerry

[Peter Roberts]

Ok, based on info from Morgan and Shacklady, there were 52 Spitfire II's converted to ASR, all prefixed with P.

275 Sqn - 8325 (IIB)

276 Sqn - 7366, 7732, 8082, 8131, 8232, 8253, 8265, 8521, 8565 (IIB), 8584 (IIB), 8667, 8674, 8727 (con to MkV, then to IIC)

277 Sqn - 7321, 7325, 7359, 7376, 7490, 7605, 7628, 7673, 7734, 7775, 7818, 7836, 7838, 7858, 7889, 7915, 7917, 7918, 7994, 8020, 8022, 8030, 8032, 8072, 8079, 8096, 8179, 8203, 8261, 8271, 8274, 8375, 8431, 8432, 8441, 8479, 8509

No Sqn noted - 8322 (IIB)

Note:-

P8441 may also have had a 'G' suffix from previous trials.

P7911 and P8324 are also listed with 277 Sqn, but no conversion noted. Likewise, P7616 and P8013 with 276 Sqn.

The list of serials for IIC conversion in Morgan and Shacklady, at the end of the Mk II serial list, excludes P7376, P7838 and P8432.

P8727 was converted to Mk V standard before conversion to IIC standard, so technically.....? But is still listed as a IIC.

P8565, P8584, P8322, and P8325 began life as Mk IIB's before being converted to IIC standard, as indicated.

Cheers

PR

Edited July 7, 2013 by Peter Roberts

[ColFord]

This and its preceding thread on ASR Spitfires has come at a fortuitous time for me and has proven very interesting to follow. Have been doing some research on the ASR Squadrons as a result of doing some digging into a specific incident from July 1943 for a very aged ex-RAF Mustang pilot friend of mine, from when he had an unplanned swim in the Channel. Have been digging out for him the details of the Squadron, aircraft and aircrew involved in the search and his rescue, including going through the ASR Squadron involved ORBs.

As a result had a 1/48th Spitfire Mk.I/IIa kit earmarked to do as one of the Spitfires that came out with the Walrus to search for him. Biggest headache now is finding yellow 1/48th scale 24" code letters. Maybe something for someone to pitch to one of the decal makers of a decal sheet to allow a selection of ASR aircraft - Anson, Lysander, Spifire, Walrus kits are all there in 1/72nd, in 1/48th CA Anson, CA Walrus, Tamiya or Airfix Spitfire Mk.I/II, Gavia/Eduard Lysander.

One version of the 1/48 CA Walrus came with 277 Sqdn markings, and the Kits at War decal sheet K4/4 had 1/48th markings for Spitfire P8131 AQ-C, but have not found any other recognisable ASR subjects on decals with kits or on aftermarket decal sheets elsewhere.

Regards,

[brewerjerry]

Hi

in 1/72 airfix walrus was a 276sq example, revell did a dogfight double 109G ? with and ASR Vb spit, ESCI did the codes for a 276SQ defiant

there are a few others but cant recall them at the moment

one of the classic airframes 1:48 defiants had 276Sq codes

jerry

[sanguin]

These links may be of interest to some of you:

http://www.aircrew-saltire.org/lib115.htm

http://www.cebudanderson.com/downdrink5.htm

I found them as part of my interest in 277 Squadron who had a very busy Flight based at Hawkinge.

John

[gingerbob]

Their Airships assuming sky codes implied 'keep off' fighting prowess for a Walrus must have seriously terrified the Luftwaffe....

I don't know- if I were a German fighter pilot and a Walrus started acting like he thought he was a fighter I might think, "This guy's insane!" and treat him with caution!

I'll have to digest all the serials etc later, and may have some inconsequential comments then, but I'm firmly in the audience for this thread.

bob

[Peter Roberts]

Interesting articles John (sanguin).

Looks like the ASR Spitfire IICs only had two machine guns per wing, four in total.

Question is - which ones? Any thoughts, leads?

PR

Edited July 7, 2013 by Peter Roberts

[Spitfires Forever]

These links may be of interest to some of you:

http://www.aircrew-saltire.org/lib115.htm

http://www.cebudanderson.com/downdrink5.htm

I found them as part of my interest in 277 Squadron who had a very busy Flight based at Hawkinge.

John

Thanks for posting, first person primary source material is always fascinating, especially regarding the lesser known aspects of the air war. We tend to forget that it wasn't all epic air battles involving famous aces, the less spectacular stories have their own intrinsic value.

Cheers

[brewerjerry]

Interesting articles John (sanguin).

Looks like the ASR Spitfire IICs only had two machine guns per wing, four in total.

Question is - which ones? Any thoughts, leads?

PR

HI

As far as I have seen the armament stayed the same, most of 276Sq a/c were cannon armed ( B wing ), so if there was a mod with just two machine guns,I presume it would have been just the removal of the cannon, but I havent seen anything about this before.

only mods i recall seeing about was the underwing rack for dropping marker smoke bombs, and the two flare shutes for the dinghy and food container.

I think all the photos I have seen only show cannon armed a/c.

cheers

Jerry

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/Spitfire/pages/Spitfire-FMkIIC-RAF-276-ASR-Sqn-AQ-C-P8131-Warmwell-Dorset-Apr-1943-01.html

http://www.worldnavalships.com/directory/squadronprofile.php?SquadronID=113

Edited July 7, 2013 by brewerjerry

[Peter Roberts]

Thanks Jerry. However, it looks like only four Mk IIBs were converted to ASR, and none seem to have flown with 277.

In one of the links you posted, James Reid states that he flew with 277, and that the II's they flew only had four machine guns.

One could assume that the installation of the wing racks required the removal of two machine guns in each wing - ? If so, inner, outer or some other combination? Any info, or is this time for best guess....

PR

[gingerbob]

Here are the initial results for ASR Mk.IIs from my Spitfire-o-matic, based on individual histories from Spit the Hist and the Air Britain serial series (with a pinch of my own initiative): [Edit: list updated, see post 32 further down]

(Note: The ones that I note as IIb are from my own analysis, so other sources may not agree, but I've got good confidence in it- if anyone can show me photographic or other conclusive evidence otherwise I'd welcome it. None of the individual histories indicate service with both 276 AND 277. Only one mention (P7490) was made of 278, with no detail, so it might be an error. It is also possible that a few were not converted to ASR configuration but were on the squadron as training/hacks, since conversion was not noted in the records, but that may also be simply a failure to record the conversion. Hope it is of help, and I'll compare with other posts in the thread etc when I get a chance. I'll also have a look at Vs at some point. -bob

Edited July 9, 2013 by gingerbob