RLM83

[Clinton78]

Dont know if you've seen this yet guy's ?

Just posted by Michael Ullmann over on TOCH here:

Hola Folks,

Last year in September I visit the IPMS Sweden Nationals. Then they asked me to give a presentation about RLM colours. I asked them I they want to hear something about my latest discoveries. Since then I was asked several times to give more information regarding RLM83. Here we go:

Test order E2-45/31: (Development and verification of camouflage for the Mediterranean Sea)

Report August 1943: Alongside RLM73 a 'darkblue' colour will be used. Flighttest in the near future.

Report September 1943: Using the camouflage pattern 'Land' and 'Sea' with RLM73 and the darkblue colour 300/III suggested for introduction.

Report November 1943: Closed with report dated 10th November 1943. Colour RLM83 'DARKBLUE' with RLM72 for Sea - and RLM70 for land aircraft suggested for introduction.

Sammelmitteilung 2, dated 15th August 1944: …on the dark shades RLM72, RLM73, RLM75, RLM81, RLM82, RLM83 …. (no colour was stated).

These original documentation of the introduction of the new colour leads to the conclusion that we have to expect a lot of 'darkblue' Luftwaffe aircraft in the Mediterranean theatre. Much more important for all those fighter-fans: This 'darkgreen', formerly known as RLM83, is nothing more, nothing less than a darkgreen variation of RLM81.

Photos of my finished Ju88 http://www.scalemates.com/whatsnew.php

Best Regards from Germany

Michael Ullmann

[Super Aereo]

Thank you for flagging this up, much appreciated!

[Duncan B]

Oh boy, and I thought I was confused before!

Duncan B

[steveinns]

Oh no, just when we thought we had it all sorted !

[stevehnz]

I'm a wondering if this was the RLM equivalent of the RAFs Tropical Land Scheme, documentation sighted but vitually no evidence of it being seen in the field afaik ( & apologies if I've missed something in the lengthy & spirited threads concerning TLS) I'm certainly no Luftwaffe colour guru, far from it but all the reading I've done over the last couple of years has not had a hint of this to my best knowledge other than something I've seen refering to this from Michael Ullman before, so are we seeing something that did happen, ie were aircraft actually finished this way or is this a just fascinating but ultimately dead end find in some archives.

Steve.

[Super Aereo]

There is mention of blue Ju 88's in Switzerland and Italy reported in Merrick's Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1935-1945 Volume One (pages 89-91).

[Brad]

Would be good to see some photographic evidence of that colour scheme.

[GrahamB]

Hi Brad,

this might be difficult as the scheme would not be recognisable from a 70/71 or 72/73 type. In Smith & Gallaspy (1977: 34) [Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings Vol.3 - Kookaburra] they have eyewitness account of use of 'royal blue' (presumably RLM83) on Ju 88s of KG76 at least - those with some scribble. I would hazard that some of those many published photos of anti-shipping Ju88s in Mediterranean Theatre 1943 onwards are actually of this form - only some colour photo would prove it.

Cheers,

GrahamB

Edited May 11, 2013 by GrahamB

[stevehnz]

Super Aero, thanks for the heads up on that, so much information, so few brains cells to retain it. I've re read that section & obviously reading it before didn't tie in with anything so easily forgotten. This latest research by Michael tying this in as RLM83 is impressive even if not without the ability certainty to raise some controversy. I shall now retire to the interested spectators benches, probably should've stayed there.

Steve.

[Clinton78]

There is some quite nice clear (sadly B&W) photos of the Swiss example. I'm not home at the moment but I'll check for them later.

[GrahamB]

Hi,

regarding Merrick's (2004: 89-90) interpretation of the Swiss Ju88 I strongly suspect that he may have inverted the meaning of 'desert and water' - the base upper colour could have just as easily been RLM79 (desert) and the scribble RLM76 (water). I would have interpreted this phrase this way - as did Luftwaffe im Focus; i.e. his opinion is not evidence.

cheers,

GrahamB

[Super Aereo]

Hi,

regarding Merrick's (2004: 89-90) interpretation of the Swiss Ju88 I strongly suspect that he may have inverted the meaning of 'desert and water' - the base upper colour could have just as easily been RLM79 (desert) and the scribble RLM76 (water). I would have interpreted this phrase this way - as did Luftwaffe im Focus; i.e. his opinion is not evidence.

cheers,

GrahamB

Quite possible, but I was thinking more of Joachim Siebert's testimony of the Ju88's with "ominous camouflage" in "royal blue" reported on page 91

[Clinton78]

Here are the Swiss Ju88 Photos:

Some saved text I have accompanying the photos, apologies as I failed to record the original source (possibly TOCH or LEMB):

WNr.550396 Ju88A-4 (ATG Leipzig) TK+SF / B3+MH. this Ju88A-4 that flew with 1./KG54? and landed in Dübendorf Switzerland on 21 Oct, 1943 after the crew had lost their bearings.

The aircraft was painted water-blue (unknown hue) on its upper surfaces throughout, upon which a wave-type pattern (sand yellow Nr.79) had been sprayed. The lower surfaces bore black night camouflage. The standard-size original Balkenkreutze were painted over probably with the same special type of camouflage and replaced by small crosses on fuselage and wings, outlined in white. The small Geschwader code “B3” was ahead of the Balkenkreutz and call and squadron letter were in standard size, being repeated on the flame suppressor tubes over the exhausts on both engines. The original black swastika with the black border was kept on the rudder but integrated into the wave pattern. The Geschwader emblem (a small coat of arms) appeared on both sides of the note.”

Merrick adds quotes from a Luftwaffe member and RAF intelligence reports from Foggia, all pointing to an overall blue as the base for the sand "Arabesque" or wave-mirror. Also Common use of dark green undersurfaces. The main discussion is in book 1, as part of the discussion of the two sets of desert colours 79/80 as used by the Luftwaffe (not Italian colours!). Merrick thinks the blue is the earlier, darker, 79 which was possibly replaced by the later colour, as the RAF reported light blue.

[Duncan B]

You wrote "Merrick thinks the blue is the earlier, darker, 79", you surely mean RLM 78 don't you?

Nice photos but other than guessing the undersides are possibly black I couldn't tell you what colour the thing is and as you have just proved so beautifully above even written statements can be incorrect. I'm not arguing one colour or another just pointing out that records can be wrong and as time passes by these things will be harder to prove one way or another which is a shame as it is history being lost.

Duncan B

[Clinton78]

Hi Duncan, the above text would have been copied and pasted from the topic from which it was originally copied so it's contents has nothing to do with me but yes there does appear to be a typo. Easily overlooked in today's fast paced computer keyboard method of typing replies on message boards. A crime perhaps not as widely committed in official documents where a simple slip of the finger could end up with an aircraft being painted pink. The photos were posted to merely back up Graham Boak's comment that this new scheme will be very difficult to distinguish from the 70/71 or 72/73 type schemes that we are more accustomed to thinking we are seeing in black and white photos.

For these Michael Ullmann findings I am merely a messenger having thought that the word needed to be spread about these interesting documents seeing as it's unlikely to be published other than on the TOCH forum. Perhaps he would have been recieved better writing a small article to be published in a Luftwaffe related or modelling magazine? We can always dismiss any findings as possibly being incorrect or typos but then surely anything that has ever been published or written in official period documents must have a possibility of being wrong. We might as well give up now then...

What I personally find to be quite a wild age old assumption is that units based in the Med were flying dark green coloured aircraft over bright blue waters. The statement 'sticking out like a sore thumb' springs to mind.....

[dragonlanceHR]

Please don't stop.

This research and discussions are important, tho the researches themselves sadly do need to grow thicker skins (this one going to NickM). It is the nature of the scientific approach that the findings and theories are tested against both facts and misconceptions.

There is so much we still don't know, or think we know because it has been repeated as gospel (and repeated in such topics on forums) from times immemorial but has been or is being proven wrong - early Zero colors, late LW colors, Du-Pont Sky type S Grey, VVS colors, the true shapes of P-40/B/C/P-36, Spitfire landing gear legs etc etc.

So don't stop. I for one thank you.

Vedran

[Clinton78]

There is so much we still don't know, or think we know because it has been repeated as gospel (and repeated in such topics on forums) from times immemorial but has been or is being proven wrong.

Never a truer saying....

I won't ever stop but Michael Ullmann should really be thanked for seeking these out. I just copied and pasted what he posted. Although I personally think it's quite amicable of him to continue to persue these documents in the archives of the period paint manufacturers and Luftwaffe. Even though the information contained might contradict what he has previously published. I only hope he continues to keep looking and sharing these documents.

[sloegin57]

All of the above is, IMHO, perfectly plausible and logical for reasons that I will give in a later thread. In the mean time and to indulge in a bit of relaxing modelling as I have been scanning negs for a month now and could do with a break, I have just dragged out of the deepest stash, the Italeri 72nd Ju-88 which, if I read this topic correctly, purports to illustrate the "Swiss" Ju-88 described above.

OK - 1.) 72tooth is not my scale. 2.) Luftwaffle WWII is not really my area.

So which colour on the kit painting chart do I change to "blue" please.

Apologies for going "off-topic"

DR

[GrahamB]

Hi,

first off - and I don't want to get into the usual Luftwaffe-camouflage arguments that can readily deteriorate - please remember that the supposed 'blue' camouflage of the Swiss Ju88 is Merrick's interpretation, not the actual colours in the Swiss report (merely 'desert and water'). One has to be careful quoting from sources like that (the very pale meandering lines cannot possibly be RLM79 anyway, tonally). Secondly, I have been a follower/fan of Luftwaffe camouflage for over forty years and I think that Michael Ullmann's findings on RLM 83 are the most significant of this period. If you read my posts carefully you will see that I am not trying to refute this at all - far from it - it's great news. My first post was only to say that a 72/83 or 70/83 scheme would be difficult to distinguish from the 70/71 or 72/73 types in b/w photos, especially if it was overlain with Wellenmuster in RLM76. I don't know yet if Michael Ullmann has a colour sample for this blue but I would hazard that it would not be highly saturated and would be tonally lighter than either RLM72 or RLM70 in order preserve the overall pattern.

Thirdly, I am not Graham Boak.

Cheers,

GrahamB

Must dig out my long-stored 1/48 Ju88 and paint it up.

[Clinton78]

Apologies GrahamB.

[GrahamB]

Hi Clinton

no worries! It was just generalised exasperation - not specific. Let's hope Michael's terrier-like digging will bring out some more facts, or some wreck in Italy will be found to prove that it was put into practice either at the factory or during major overhauls.

Cheers,

GrahamB

[Clinton78]

Indeed, that's what we need, an example of the actual colour.

[tango98]

While on the subject of 'blue' Ju 88s and what Siebert saw/remembers seeing in 1943, it is entirely possible that he may have been referrring to some of the few 'blue' Ju 88s operated by the 3./33 out of Frosinone circa September 1943 and later from Forli. While certainly not a 'royal blue', these aircraft had had their upper surfaces repainted in a lattice or 'squiggle' pattern of 65 in varying densities for better concealment for shipping reconnaissance and as later used on their 188s operating out of Athens, the density of the blue remained entirely up to the personnel (including flying personnel) who mixed and applied the overspray.

IMHO, as far as the hypothesised '83 Dark Blue' is concerned, it is entirely plausible to believe that consideration was being given to using this colour for over water Mediterranean use (note the word suggested in the material posted by Michael). Also, and based on confirmed surviving documentary evidence, it is quite within the realms of possiblity that a few airframes were so finished for trials under operational conditions in the intended theatre.

However, given the military situation in the Mediterranean at that time - it does seem a bit late in the day to be developing a new camouflage colour for use there.

Just some thoughts.on the subject

Dave

[Clinton78]

Thanks Dave.

[popeye]

.....

So which colour on the kit painting chart do I change to "blue" please.

...

DR

OMG - what kind of pandora has been opened by dear Michael

No Dennis - you don't have to change anything to "blue" ....

Why oh why nobody thinks of asking where the pics of the interned Ju 88 come from ?

Georg Hoch, author of "Me 109 in Swiss Service" has also published a book on

camouflage and markings of the Swiss AF 1915 - 1950

http://www.ipms.ch/plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?66

Also covered are interned a/c

The profile below is included in the book -

and has been drawn by G. Hoch using official Swiss documents describing the colours of the interned Ju 88.

Cheers, Rolf

(Profile posted with kind permisssion of G. Hoch)

Edited May 14, 2013 by popeye