835 NAS Fairey Swordfish Mk.II and Mk.III, HMS Nairana

[Ragtag]

Hi all,

I'm seeking some information on the swordfish of 835 sqn aboard HMS Nairana during 1944 - I'm looking to model a Mk.II and a Mk.III, but haven't had much luck sourcing squadron codes or colour schemes - only this painting:

The only photo I've managed to find seems to show the swordfish in a similar scheme to the sea hurricanes (i.e. all over white with anti-glare panel). However, this photo was taken in March 1944 and therefore shows only Mk.II swordfish.

So, to summarise:

1) Can anyone provide squadron codes for 835 NAS swordfish?

2) Can anyone confirm the colours of Nairana's Mk.II swordfish?

3) Can anyone confirm whether the Mk.IIIs which arrived later in 1944 also wore the same colours?

Any other relevant information would also be appreciated.

Cheers,

Stu

[swordfish fairey]

By E.E.Barringer, the story of 835 Squadron.

By John Kilbracken

Have you tried these two books Stu?

They are both about life on 835 Sqdn and you may get some idea's from them.....

Edited April 1, 2013 by swordfish fairey

[Test Graham]

Mk.II HS227 5A (Battler, but lost 1.3.44 which makes it Nairana?)

It may be possible to find other examples, such as

NE989 Y delivered 6.2.44 but lost 5.2.44!

Mk.III NR939 YC

NR862 R (pres. YR)

NR874 Q (pres YQ)

NR877 X (pres. ZX)

NR882 B, later C

NR886 A - like many other Mk.IIIs, this was initially delivered as NR886/G, suggesting secret equipment aboard. I imply this means that it had the large ASV radar - and logically so would the others.

I have no listing for 835 sq with Kx codes. According to Sturtivant "The Squadrons of the Fleet Air Arm" the unit's Swordfish started with single letters, changed to a 5 prefix 4/43, then a Y prefix 7/44 on Nairana, then Z prefix early 1945 on Nairana, all with letters for the individual aircraft.

The combination K + a number is appropriate for one of 836 Sq's flights on an MAC, the fights moving from ship to ship. 836K flight however is not listed as ever serving on Nairana. i have found several examples of Swordfish from 836K Flight but not yet one where the individual number was recorded.

I would expect the colours to have been Temperate Sea Scheme (Extra Dark Sea Grey/Dark Slate Grey) on the pure plan surfaces, with white elsewhere.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Graham Boak

[Seahawk]

Post deleted: info related to 836 Sq, not 835, and was therefore irrelevant.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Seahawk

[Test Graham]

You worried me then......but looking at my first edition, you've been confused by the picture of an 835 Sq Mk.II on Battler, in the earlier camouflage, placed at the top of a page dealing with 836 Sq..

LS432 had no time with either 835 or 836 - looking at the photo it is LS434, despite what the caption says. This went later to 836K and so could even be one of the aircraft in the painting!

HS295 was indeed Q1 (with 836)

[Seahawk]

You worried me then......but looking at my first edition, you've been confused by the picture of an 835 Sq Mk.II on Battler, in the earlier camouflage, placed at the top of a page dealing with 836 Sq..

LS432 had no time with either 835 or 836 - looking at the photo it is LS434, despite what the caption says. This went later to 836K and so could even be one of the aircraft in the painting!

HS295 was indeed Q1 (with 836)

Thank you for rescuing me from my own idiocy: situation remedied! And I'd spotted the LS432 typo but still went ahead and typed it: doh!

[Test Graham]

But it does raise the question of how long the earlier camouflage lasted on the Mk.IIs. I'd have thought it would have been gone by1944 - which OK is what Stu has said but I haven't found that particular photo.

Barringer's book looks interesting, I might have to get that.

I suppose the ship in the painting is Nairana - it looks like her but I don't know the British small carriers well enough. It doesn't look like a MAC to me - does it to anyone else?

[Ragtag]

I would expect the colours to have been Temperate Sea Scheme (Extra Dark Sea Grey/Dark Slate Grey) on the pure plan surfaces, with white elsewhere

That's what I would have expected too, until I found this:

[Test Graham]

Argue that one either way - there's so much glare that the carrier deck looks white too, and the wing roundels have disappeared. However, if they were willing to repaint the Sea Hurricanes there's nothing to stop them doing the same to the Swordfish. IanG might know better.

There has been a lot of discussion about the Sea Hurricanes - it will be somewhere in there that a date for the repainting was mooted. The aircraft will have been in standard colours before then anyway, but we can all understand why you would want to do something unusual.

I don't see the ASV, either on the belly or the wings?

[Ragtag]

And yet the fuselage roundels seem unaffected in the shot. Looking at the wing of 7N in the foreground I almost wondered whether this photo was taken as the aircraft were being painted. A roundel is visible but looks painted out, although as you say it could be glare.

Thanks to all for the help so far.

[Test Graham]

Look at the shadows - the sun is directly overhead, so the glare is coming from the uppersurfaces. We know the SH retained the wing roundel but they can't be seen on them either. It'd be nice to find another photo.

[Seahawk]

This site might be of interest:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030202224021/http:/www.navismagazine.com/demo/nicki/story_of_nicki.htm

NB a. the view from above of a white Sea Hurricane, clearly showing the retained upper surface roundel, and b. the serial to code tie-ins at the end. From the text it sounds as if the repaint of the Hurricanes took place shortly after embarcation in Nairana on 30 Dec 1943. However that may be a false impression created by the absence of any description of any other events later. No mention of the Swordfishes being overpainted overall white but that might be because a. the article is about Hurricanes and b. the Swordfish were already mostly white anyway.

Personally I think a repaint of the Swordfishes' upper surfaces unlikely. With Graham: glare.

PS 835 Sq had relinquished her Sea Hurricanes for Wildcat VIs by convoy JW61 which sailed on 20 October 1944. [source: Poolman: Escort Carrier (Ian Allen, 1972), p.144]

Edited April 1, 2013 by Seahawk

[iang]

I agree with Graham - glare. I've never seen a photo taken in normal lighting conditions which shows the upper-surfaces of a wartime Swordfish without camouflage. There is also no documentation for such a scheme.

Here's a photo of 5Z:LS272.

Note the camouflage to the top of the fuselage

Edited April 2, 2013 by iang

[Ragtag]

Firstly, many thanks to all contributors - you've been a huge help.

Do you know the date of that pic Ian?

Based on all the information presented, I'm now planning the following:

Swordfish Mk.III ASW - either NR939 YC or NR862 YR in white with EDSG/DSG camo on wings/fuselage top. Would the underside of this scheme have been white or a pale blue (something akin to duck egg perhaps)?

Swordfish Mk.II with rockets - LS272 5Z.

Can anyone clarify a date when they shifted from a sky grey or beige-green on the fuselage (as shown on plans for 1940-41 examples) to the white?

[Test Graham]

White undersides. I shall have to dig out a date for the change to white but Sky Grey from prewar changed in 1940 to Sky. Only the ASW squadrons changed to white later.

I'm still interested in that painting - do you have any background for it?

Edited April 2, 2013 by Graham Boak

[Ragtag]

Sorry Graham, all I can tell you is that I found it here: http://forargyll.com/2012/05/chris-thornhill-on-jock-bevan-an-ardfern-connection-to-the-arctic-convoys/

The author of the site claims it was painted by a veteran of 835 (Jock Bevan) and that it depicts Nairana and 835 swordfish. However, as Jock also flew with 836 I suppose it could be a painting of his time here.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Ragtag

[Test Graham]

There's no law against 836K Flight overflying Nairana, of course, were they in the vicinity. I suspect it is the artist combining two aspects of his career. The pale blue of the roundels is interesting, perhaps a sign of weathering? It is perhaps dangerous to expect too much precision from an artist, but they can capture aspects otherwise not commented on.

The White scheme was introduced on 9th February 1943 for RAF Coastal Command. Matt white sides, gloss white undersides. The Admiralty will have followed this within a few days, and it would normally have been implemented when the units returned to a land base. So I doubt that there would have been any aircraft still in the earlier scheme on Nairana, but it was carried whilst on Battler.

[Ragtag]

I agree with Graham - glare. I've never seen a photo taken in normal lighting conditions which shows the upper-surfaces of a wartime Swordfish without camouflage. There is also no documentation for such a scheme.

Just to finally put this to bed, I've found a photo in Swordfish Patrol by George E. Sadler of a swordfish and two sea hurricanes on Nairana taken from above. Despite the glare there is a clear difference between fuselage sides and wing tops.

However, just to confuse matters in the same book there is a Swordfish Mk.III from Aug. 1944 which carries recognition stripes and has the underside of the top wing painted in a dark colour/black where it passes over the fuselage.

[iang]

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. The Sadler photo you refer to shows the upper-surface of the wings in camouflage. That was my point. The other photo showing a black panel to the under-surface off the central section of the top wing is seen on a number of Swordfish from this period. It has been discussed before on here I believe, if you do a search - though without definite conclusion as to the purpose of the marking.

[stevehnz]

the underside of the top wing painted in a dark colour/black where it passes over the fuselage.

Would this have been an anti glare measure i wonder? I'm not especially cluey on these at all but sure interested in this thread & its another part of the puzzle perhaps.

Steve.

[Ragtag]

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. The Sadler photo you refer to shows the upper-surface of the wings in camouflage. That was my point.

Yes Ian, I was just saying I'd managed to find a photo of Nairana's swordfish in 1944 which confirms the effect in the other photo is glare rather than just assuming it was.

Could be Steve, in which case I find it interesting that many other swordfish I've seen with white underwings don't have it applied.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Ragtag

[John66w]

Rag tag I know this is a while since you posted this but I couldn't get access to the website till now. To answer your question on the colour scheme I asked my dad before he passed away in June who was on this Sqn. The picture you have was done by jock bevan one of the aircrew and my dad was groundcrew. 

 

All the aircraft where painted white all over whilst one nairana. The grey and white was what they should have been but being wartime white was the speed of choice.

[Ragtag]

My condolences John, and my thanks for the additional information also.

 

As it happens these kits are still in the stash as circumstances keep me busy with other things (and of course, the ever-roving eye of the modeller gets me distracted with other projects). I have, however, acquired a Fulmar and a Wildcat VI to represent some other aircraft from Nairana's service.

[Graham Boak]

The comment about speed appears odd.  The aircraft will have arrived in the standard scheme: the quickest thing to do is to leave them that way.  However, the comment was raised earlier that if they painted the Hurricanes overall white, then why not the Swordfish?  It will make a different and interesting model, with the backing of your dad.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Graham Boak

[John66w]

ok graham I am only passing on the info from someone who worked on the aircraft on that Sqn. 

 

For or anyone that served in the forces will say "why is it the queen only smells fresh paint from freshly painted kerb stones everywhere she goes" because someone of a higher rank decided that was what was going to happen and you did it. 

 

These aircraft aft were shot up holed and damaged repaired and painted again with what they had onboard. It's a bit hard to just pop into the local paint store for the correct paint whilst in the middle of the Atlantic. Whilst on the convoys they were all white. During the Mediterranean and India trip they were repainted again.  Quote from my dad. Damaged airframes were generally stripped of everything possible before ditching over the side to be reused.