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Ordering from Wingnut Wings


jacksdad

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... and before we go anywhere near politics on the tax charges, let's not, eh? :fight:

There has been a fair amount of nonsense posted on this thread.Wingnuts paying our VAT for us has to be top of the pile

Quoted for truth.

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Wingnut service is excellent and the only problem is your local tax laws, from what I read if the parcel gets chosen for the VAT charge. The rest of us in the rest of the world have no problems and if somthing is wrong with the kit or missing , Wingnuts after sale service is second to none.

As for being unprofessional, Wingnuts business model is not the same of other manufactures and does not included wholesale sales to hobby shops or distributors. Even in NZ they are not availabe in local hobby shops. They have a very succesfull product and appear to be very good at what they are doing and how they are doing it.

They are available from Hannents and HLJ in Japan at a price above Wingnuts plus postage on top.

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Quite a lot of misapprehension going on here.

As others have said, the postman does not have "a right to collect taxes", whatever that's supposed to mean. Buying stuff from overseas amounts to importing it, on which duty and VAT are generally payable. As it happens model kits aren't subject to duty but they are subject to VAT. Because kits are coming through the postal system, HMRC has an arrangement with Parcel Farce for collecting the money that we as the buyers of the kit are legally obliged to pay. Others have demonstrated that PF's £8 charge, while obviously unwelcome, is a lot cheaper and easier than doing it yourself directly with HMRC. Now, there's a long and interesting discussion to be had about the merits of VAT as a regressive tax, and the practice of charging it on the postal fees as well as the value of the kit, but that's not suitable for a non-political site. Suffice it to say that we're stuck with it and the best practical approach is to allow for it in your costings. (I've stopped searching eBay for non-EU items for this reason.)

VAT is payable no matter what the country of origin. The fact that, in practice, actually being charged is a bit of a lottery doesn't reflect some evil discriminatory practice. It reflects the fact that thousands and thousands of items enter the country every day and not all of them can be checked. Nor is the fact that New Zealand is in the Commonwealth at all relevant. It's an independent country outside the EU, so importing from it is the same as for any other nation. I'm not sure New Zealand would be very open to becoming a Crown colony again just to knock a few quid off some model kits.

VAT is not an EU tax. It's just a sales tax, which is a widespread form of taxation everywhere. For instance, most (if not all) US states impose some form of sales tax, and the last time I looked the USA wasn't in the EU. The UK had purchase tax before it joined the EU. For the rights and wrongs of VAT, see above.

WNW setting a price that Hannants have to follow would be resale price maintenance, which is unlawful. This is why manufacturers can set "recommended" prices but not insist on them, and that's what allows retailers to offer discounts. In this case it seems that a lack of control on WNW's part over what Hannants sell has the opposite effect, but that's just the way it is sometimes. It's not unique to WNW either. So long as we have the ability to buy at a distance, there's some competition on price, and if Hannants charges too much (or at least too much to justify the benefits like certainty over delivery times), they'll find that they don't prosper. This, of course, requires buyers to shop around. Moaning about the situation on a modelling forum won't work.

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I've bought a few WNW kits and also as part of a group order. I don't think I have had to pay the correct VAT (at 20%) on any kit order - PF seem incapable of calculating it (partly helped by the layout of the WNW customs note on the parcel and by assuming the price is in NZ dollars not US)

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To be fair I think it would be hard to chastise PF for getting it wrong when WNW use a different currency than what we actually pay in. I've also found they use the cheapest kit price so if I buy a big kit and a little one it says 2 kits at NZ$69.

Every little helps as they say.

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Sometimes, Parcel Force rip open the clear plastic envelope on the package and remove it's contents, which of course contains the delivery address. When, a little later on, another PF employee looks for somewhere to send it, and finds nothing, it's sent back to New Zealand. WNW then have to try to match the contents of the box with an existing order to identify the customer. They then post it back, and with any luck, when it reaches the clutches of PF again, it will be handled by somebody with more than a handful of little grey cells. Other than that, no problems......! This has happened to me and on several other occasions I'm told. My DH-2 kit has more air miles than Apollo 13 NB. WNW are exemplary with their shipping and customer services.

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I have bought three kits from NZ and they all arrived without any bother. I even don't mind paying the VAT bit, what winds me up is the "extras" that parcel force add on for the privilige of doing it for me but what can you do. :shrug:

Two points though, the price direct from WNW is a bargin, it really is. Check the prices on the Hannants site, if there was a dealership here it would be charging those sort of prices, even with the extra charges I found a direct order from WNW still came in under those prices even with out postage charges from Hannants.

Second point regarding the parcel force charge just remember it could be much worse. I order a large ship kit from HobbyLink Japan on preorder so got it almost 20% off. Great I thought even with postage and VAT it will still be cheaper than buying it here. Well I was half right, the courier company charged a £35 handling fee for paying the VAT on my behalf. :angry:

Richard

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I'm not sure it's VAT you're paying. I think it's just Import Duty, a more mysterious amount, hence the PO seems to vary on it. I was charged £18 for a few New Zealand slot car tyres worth very little and £13 on a WNW kit, worth considerably more, neither of which I'd asked for, so I sent them back.

When I was a kit producer in the model car world, everywhere charged the same for a given kit, so all the shops advertised the same price wherever it was going and I sent stuff all over the world, with never any reports of anyone having to pay extra or of what that might have been called if they had. My point is that WNW should do a deal with Hannants so that the kits are the same price from WNW or Hannants. One main distributor in each major country would sell them more kits as well.

Of course if you lot are happy to toddle off the sorting office, cap in hand to the government's agents, that's up to you, but I expect and get my post, unfettered at my gate without the hassle of going on a 17 mile round trip at a time of THEIR choosing to get what I thought I'd already paid for (or, in my case, my customer had).

Just out of interest, when you finally turn up at the sorting office, what do the staff tell you you're actually paying? VAT? Import Duty? The goon at mine couldn't put any name to the tax, apart from the VAT on their "service" of acting as tax collectors. He also told me that as the Post Office pay peanuts they get monkies, as some sort of explanation for his not knowing what he was charging me for!

Martin

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It is definitely VAT, not import duty. You can check this yourself on the HMRC webshite.

To sell kits at the same price between Hannants and Wingnut would require sales from New Zealand to include VAT at UK rates. This is impossible. In all jurisdictions VAT is charged in the receiving country and when you import something, you buy it at the ex-VAT price and pay the VAT on arrival. If you doubt me take a look at ads in a magazine like Fine Scale Modeler. US sellers will all have a line at the bottom saying "Arkansas residents add 17% GST" or similar. This is because, in their federal structure, Arkansas buyers pay VAT within Arkansas, whereas their neighbours in Mississippi don't, although they might in Mississippi. It's just the same between the UK and New Zealand. It doesn't apply to EU purchases because the EU has a customs union where VAT paid in one country counts for all the others.

You are, effectively, demanding that the UK and New Zealand governments agree to amend the standard rules on the VAT treatment of overseas purchases to make an exception for a single range of plastic model kits. I'm afraid I can't see that happening.

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But over a certain level, you DO pay import duty, so are we saying that we're being asked for both? And what about all the stuff you can buy from Hong Kong on which I've never heard of taxes being asked for?. Radio Control equipment comes to mind at the higher end of prices.

It doesn't affect me, as I said, but is an interesting discussion when you think that the staff themselves, who, let's face it, are not taxmen, can't actually quantify OR qualify the charges with any consistency across the land. Just curious, that's all.

Martin

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Martin,

I think you've just been lucky so far and not been "got". Just because you didn't pay any duty, doesn't mean it wasn't applicable... it's whether the box is sufficiently interesting or suitably documented with the actual value for them to grab it and tag it for taxing. Once that's done, you'll also be hit by Parcelforce's admin charge, which although you've not contracted them to pay the tax on your account, is now mandatory due to some quickly written new legislation.

Whether it affects you depends on the above factors and of course the exemption which IIRC is around £18 and includes the cost of shipping, and not because you buy different things. You'll find out eventually, and then you'll be wiser and poorer. The parcel itself usually has a sticker with details of the reason and breakdown of the charge on it, but if you've got a thickie, someone badly trained or a lazy person on the phone, they'll probably just waffle to get you off the phone.

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Hmm, looks like luck has played a part, although my HK purchases were cheap computer leads not coming close to £18 and free postage (how DO they absorb that?)

And I don't buy from abroad otherwise, so I get away with it. From America, my chum gets it and sends it to me as a gift, but that's rare too.

I take it Czech Republic charges are already paid? As I have steered a couple of people towards using CMK's contract resin casting services and 50 sets of slot car body kits for each of at least two different people will total a LOT more than £18!

Cheers,

Martin

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Beware on the gifts. VAT is still payable, albeit with a higher threshold, and the sender has to declare the value on the label. The obvious riposte is to say it's low value and defy HMRC to differ - which often works with second-hand kits too, especially if they're out of production so there's no reference point.

The Czech Republic is in the EU so their stuff should come through unmolested.

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Correct. VAT being an EU tax*, when a UK buyer buys a kit from elsewhere in the EU, he automatically pays VAT in the EU country he buys it from - in this case the Czech Republic.

*It is, honest. Sure, lots of countries outside the EU have their own sales taxes, but this particular one, the VAT in force throughout the EU, is a regime directly brought into effect by, and regulated by, the EU.

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax#European_Union

Edited by Work In Progress
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I've had to pay VAT and handling charges on all my orders and the packages have been delayed by parcelforce holding onto them until the VAT is paid. I think it's worth ordering about 3-4 kits at a time in order to spread out the handling charge.

I ordered a parcel from HLJ which ended up being delivered by Fed Ex as it was a big box. I was able to closely track it online and delivery was quick. I initially thought I'd not have to pay VAT but an invoice for the VAT and handling charge came through about a week later. Fed Ex's handling charge was £10.50 but at least they didn't hold the parcel to Ransom till I paid the charges..... Much better Service than Parcelforce.

Unfortunatly my last experience with WNW hasn't been great. I ordered 4 kits just before Christmas and still don't have them. I ordered them on the 6th December and they were dispatched on the 12th. Using the Tracking Number WNW Supplied the last update on the package was Delivery Agent - AUCKLAND - PTT Forwarded for export on the 20th December. Over a month later. I contacted WNW and got a reply asking me to check with Parcelforce who said the parces wasn't in their jurisdiction. WNW then chased it up with the NZ Postal service and said it may take a few weeks to resolve.

They sent me a letter with a form to fill in and said I could send back the hard copy or scan it and email it or fax it. I ended up having to send the form back through the post because when I emailed it I got a response saying they could only recieve details related to this incident from the email address of the originator which was WNW. I forwarded it to WNW who sent it on and waited to hear.

A couple of weeks later I asked WNW for an update and they replied saying they were expeciting an update from the New Zealand Post Service. I didn't get an update when WNW said they would provide one so ended up complaining. As I had been waiting 3 months for the kits from placing the initial order. WNW said they were still waiting on some info from the NZ postal Service but agreed to send replacement kits out which if all goes well should turn up any day now.

I don't like to say anything bad about WNW as the quality of the products is amazing and I think represent great value for money and a high enjoyment factor wether you're building them or just looking through the box fondling plastic.However this experience has soured the deal for me a little bit and am a little reluctant to buy any more at the moment.

It might have been due to the order being done close to christmas as I know someone who ordered at more or less the same time and their order went missing as well. I just thought I'd share this as I was wondering if anyone else has had problems with missing parcels and if so how long it has taken for a resolution.

Regards,


Mark

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Beware on the gifts. VAT is still payable, albeit with a higher threshold, and the sender has to declare the value on the label. The obvious riposte is to say it's low value and defy HMRC to differ - which often works with second-hand kits too, especially if they're out of production so there's no reference point.

The Czech Republic is in the EU so their stuff should come through unmolested.

So, if a friend buys something and sends it to me from America, however I may have paid for it, it still attracts VAT? Even though America has its own system?

So when he sent me an old and beautiful brass locomotive from the 60s, albeit in mint and boxed condition and it WAS a genuine gift, I should have paid VAT on it?

I think you can guess my response to that!!

So far, it is the American side who have always messed up when I've sent stuff their way. As in, they wrecked a hand made model boat for a client worth over £3000. No excuse given, but it arrived with about every breakable part ripped out. Significantly all the bits that they may have thought in the pig ignorance , might "work", although it was a static model in a glass case, sent by FedEx. It took weeks to arrive and missed the lady's husband's birthday. On another occasion I did a painting for a friend and it took six weeks to arrive. No explanation. Yet nothing from America to me ever takes more than 5 days, even from California. I was sent a huge, heavy box of moulds, castings and resin parts from California and it turned up in 5 days, no hassle.

When I was considering importing classic American wooden speedboats a few years ago I was obviously prepared for paying import duty, but presumably that would have been done at the docks. Except they would have charged me almost as much as the transport in a 40ft container! So they got the bum's rush too. And anyway, I got married instead :winkgrin:

Martin

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if you import goods into the EU from outside the EU, then in principle you have to pay VAT on them, yes. There are certain exemptions, but that's the general principle.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&propertyType=document&_pageLabel=pageTravel_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000014#P55_5016

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  • 3 weeks later...

The first time I ordered from WNW c.3 years ago and having been sent a letter by parcel force demanding payment of VAT and handling fee before delivery I researched on line the law re the handling charge.

What I found was that whilst they can legally delay delivery until the VAT is paid they cannot delay delivery if the VAT is paid but not the handling charge. In my case I paid the VAT online and asked for a separate invoice for the handling charge.

The kits were delivered but no further invoice came.

The next time I again paid only the VAT, the kit was delivered followed a few days later by the handling fee invoice. This I did not pay and now, a couple of years later, I've heard nothing more.I understand that the £8 handling fee is a civil debt and I can only assume that parcel force take the pragmatic view that the cost of pursuing it would be far greater than the recovery.

It's a couple of years since my last brush with parcel force but it might be worthwhile checking if the law is still the same.

Chris

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  • 2 months later...

I paid fees on an order from the USA last week, and when I did it on line there was no option for paying individual aspects of the invoice. It was just one sum. Same for the order before that ( which was over the phone). It was an automated service that simply took the amount owed. To give you some idea if the total fees, my last order was for goods of $79.98, and the total payable was £20.50

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I recently ordered a couple of things from Amazon.Com (DVDs that are only available in Region 1), and they had a shipping option that prepaid the VAT for this country (they take a "deposit" which goes to the courier). Even with that fee factored in, the price of the items was cheaper in pounds than buying them via the Amazon UK site (which still ships them from America and warns you that you will be liable for any additional taxes and fees incurred). The package duly arrived covered in appropriate stickers, and no VAT or "handling" ransom to pay. Clearly some companies and couriers are able to sort this out...

bestest,

M.

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Ordering from Canada is simple. The packages get held up for more time by customs canada, than it takes the box to transit the Pacific Ocean. But never had any fees or problems. I have ordered 14 kits so far, each one shipped one at a time. I've just ordered my 15th this morning.

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