Soviet Spitfire

[coolhand]

Hi guys,

My current project is 1/48 Tamiya Spitfire V which i'm very tempted to do in Soviet colours.

As I understand it the aircraft were supplied in the standard RAF dark green/ocean gray over medium sea gray scheme.

I've got hold of a set of AMT decals that covers the national markings, aircraft numbers etc

However I was wondering about the English stencil and walkway markings, some profiles and pictures i've seen show them, some don't.

Can anybody confirm if these would have been present or not? Also the yellow stripe on the leading edge of the wing?

Cheers

[Giorgio N]

Pictures taken during the delivery seem to show standard stencils and also the yellow leading edge.

What then happened after the aircrafts entered service with the VVS is harder to tell. Some pictures show aircrafts that have not been touched up, so I'd expect these would have retained the stencils, other pictures I've seen show aircrafts that must have been repainted, in this case I don't think the stencils would have been retained.

The safest bet would be doing an aircraft early in its VVS service

[Troy Smith]

AFAIK Lend lease items did NOT get repainted unless they really needed it, repairs did, and I think a lot did post war [i suspetc to keep grounds crews busy]

interesting article here

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/spit/index.htm

Note, these are in Iran, being prepared for delivery, the roundels have been oversprayed with RAF paint and red stars applied, there are photos showing this.

There are not mnay photos of Soviet Spitfires, in Red Stars 4, it says they were issued to PVO units[air defence] and as they were not in the frontline, it was harder to get access, so less photos exist.

BEWARE profiles without photos. Example

Merlin 46-engined Spitfire Vb of the 3rd Squadron of 57th GIAP during Kuban battle.

the groovy profile has a lightning flash....I think it's a stain on the photo. note the blob on the fuel tank... what part of the arrow is that?

There are 3 clear photos showing markings of Spitfire Vbs in VVS service I can think of, bort 20, Bort 21 and the bort 538 above. There may be more. Decals are available of two of the above schemes

HTH

T

[John]

538's the aircraft in the new Airfix member's set. No lightning flash, but they give it a yellow spinner.

http://www.airfix.com/airfix-products/new-for-2013/

John

[John Thompson]

What Troy said. Unless a better photo surfaces of EP210/538 in Russian service (which I wouldn't expect), I'd leave it in its RAF finish without that rather imaginative lightning flash and just weather the hell out of it. If you look at the photo hard enough, there's a small blotch below the exhaust stacks which you could imagine is the silhouette of a pouncing lion! I'd also be skeptical of Airfix's yellow spinner - trying to analyze colours from black and white photos is always debatable, but I don't see anything to make me believe that the colour is anything but the original RAF Sky.

John

[Giorgio N]

EP210 shows the features typical of these aircrafts at delivery: sky fuselage band and red star with black edges. Therefore it's an aircraft that has not been repainted apart from the addition of the tactical number and the markings on the tail. I'd expect this to have retained the original stencils as well.

Bort 20 (EP356) is another aircraft stil carrying original British applied markings.

2 good pictures of another aircraft are in the Mushroom book on the Spit V: this carries the number 65 and has stars with large white (or silver) edges on wings fuselage and tail. Even if the aircraft has had some areas repainted (the white 65 number is behind the fuselage star and there's no sky band), what can be seen of the camo scheme is consistent with the standard spitfire scheme, so I'd say this one kept the original scheme as well.

[Troy Smith]

538's the aircraft in the new Airfix member's set. No lightning flash, but they give it a yellow spinner.

http://www.airfix.com/airfix-products/new-for-2013/

John

Hi John

yes, I forgot that.

i doubt the yellow spinner, as yellow was the Lufftwaffe tactical marking colour.

It looks too dark for sky, compare the to the band. Maybe silver, which is what the tactical number looks to be.

Note that the centre of the Guards badge on the tail is white, and the number looks darker than the sky band.

Hi Giorgio

forgot about bort 65, i think that's what I was thinking instead of bort 21, the book was not easily to hand...and sometime I try to do a quick post without wandering off doing a load of research....

that has a soviet type DF loop fiited IIRC.

One final point, the pre delivery phot, the yelllow leading edges look to have been painted out, but I seen them retained on Hurricanes.

As always, try to work from a photo.

cheers

T

Edited March 19, 2013 by Troy Smith

[John Thompson]

i doubt the yellow spinner, as yellow was the Lufftwaffe tactical marking colour.

It looks too dark for sky, compare the to the band. Maybe silver, which is what the tactical number looks to be.

FWIW, I think the difference in appearance between the fuselage band and the spinner is just the result of a difference in the angle of lighting, plus some extra wear and tear on the spinner. But who knows - it could be just about anything.

I still like my "pouncing lion" idea...

John

[Test Graham]

Did the unit use a lightning flash on any of its other types?

[John Thompson]

Did the unit use a lightning flash on any of its other types?

Doubtful; it's hard for anyone who doesn't read Russian to research that. Apparently 57 GvIAP was formed from 36 IAP in February 1943. Prior to that date and for two months afterwards, they flew I-16's before converting to the Spitfire. I've seen photos of I-16 type 28's with lightning flashes on them, but I don't know what unit they belonged to, and the flash was much different:

I'm guessing these aircraft (of which there were several) were from a different unit, but I have no way of knowing that. I've never seen a photo of an I-16 specifically attributed to either 36 IAP or 57 GvIAP.

57 GvIAP converted to Airacobras late in 1943 and flew that type for the remainder of the war. I haven't seen any photos of P-39's in Russian service with lightning flash markings, and again, neither have I seen any specific to 57 GvIAP...

I have seen a Su-2 and at least one Il-2 with this type of marking, but those were types not operated by 57GvIAP.

John

Edited March 19, 2013 by John Thompson

[Test Graham]

I've had the following note from Franek Grabowski

" I was discussing the issue with Igor, when he was making the profile,
and researching the unit in archives.
The yellow arrow was applied indeed, but it was removed as it attracted
attention of... own fighters. It was then sanded down, hence clear shape
visible on the photo. It is believed that the arrow returned to unit's
Cobras later in the war, but much less prominent."

[John Thompson]

I've had the following note from Franek Grabowski

" I was discussing the issue with Igor, when he was making the profile,

and researching the unit in archives.

The yellow arrow was applied indeed, but it was removed as it attracted

attention of... own fighters. It was then sanded down, hence clear shape

visible on the photo. It is believed that the arrow returned to unit's

Cobras later in the war, but much less prominent."

Very interesting - thanks, Graham! That explains the appearance of that horizontal bar of discolouration below the cockpit in the photo Troy posted!

John

[Giorgio N]

Troy,

you're right about 65 and the DF loop. It would make for an interesting subject, a Spitfire a bit different from usual.

The pictures of 65 also clearly shows another detail: the use of a cable antenna between the rudder and the post as used in the early Spitfires. This was present on all the Spitfire V delivered to the Soviet Union as the Soviets used HF radios and not the later VHF units as used on the RAF machines at that time.

[coolhand]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the info and photos. Think I will go with a newly delivered aircraft with stencils. Not going with the lightning bolt though because looking at Troys photo I'm not convinced thats what it is.

Many thanks again.

[gcn]

I did the flash because it looks better IMO

[Test Graham]

The answer seems to be that the aircraft is right with or without the lightning bolt, but if without will require some local treatment to the paint scheme.

[John]

I'm not at home at the moment so I can't check but I don't think the Airfix sheet for 538 has stars on the upper wings, although it does suggest that the roundels were painted out in green. Looking at the delivery photo above it would seem stars should be present and that the roundels and fin flashes were painted out rather more neatly with both Dark Green and Ocean Grey.

John