1:72 Monogram Grumman F7F-3 Tigercat

[crobinsonh]

Great work as usual Bill. Always look forward to your builds. This is one aircraft I would love to see fly for real!

[p-26luvr]

I have similar detail sets for my Tigercat model, so I will be watching this thread very closely. Thanks very much for posting your progress it is encouraging me to work some more on mine. Carl T

[Navy Bird]

This project is in limbo right now, as I'm finishing up an XF10F Jaguar for the Swing Wing Group Build, and then I have the Obsolete Kit Group Build coming up after that. (For that one, I'm going to build a 1965 vintage kit from Revell USA of the Consolidated PB4Y-1, which is a navalized B-24D. I'm going to sand away all the rivets, re-scribe, and use an Eduard Big Ed set for the Hasegawa kit. Have no idea if that will even fit!)

 

I received the resin wheel wells from Starfighter - they look excellent! Highly recommended. Maybe I can do some work on this one in-between the group builds...

 

Cheers,

Bill

[philp]

Just found this and will keep an eye on it for when you start back up.

I plan on doing the nightfighter version in Korea (by the way, the single seater didn't see action in Korea) but might hold out for the AZ kit if they really do come through as I have plenty of other projects to take up my time.

[Navy Bird]

Now this is a build thread that needs a KUTA!!!     

 

I suppose it's time for me to finish this model. Let's see if I can reach it, and bring it down from the shelf of doom...

 

Cheers,

Bill

[CedB]

Hey Bill! Just read through this thread and I feel for you... I thought I was taking on a challenge with my Brigand but good grief, those engines!!

Watching with interest and ready with some manly support...

[Hamden]

Looking forward to seeing this back on the bench!

Roger

[Noah Greggs]

Cool, always a good feeling when that build that LIVES in the shelf of doom is complete....

P.S looks good..

[Navy Bird]

Here is a photo of the resin pieces that make up the Starfighter detail set for the Tigercat wheel wells. This is designed specifically for the Monogram kit, and I think Mark from Starfighter has done a nice job here. This will look so much better than the photoetch wheel wells in the Aires set.

 

 

I can't use this set with the one nacelle that I started earlier. I had to cut off the front in order to use what Aires had designed, not only for the wheel well, but also for the engine mounts. So I'll have to improvise and change plans a bit. Thank goodness I have a second old Monogram Tigercat kit! I can use one of the nacelles from that kit to replace the one I cut up. Gotta love modelling - this is why we have huge stashes with more than one of the same kit.

 

The Aires set does give you some very nice main gear doors. I'll take the new nacelle sets that I'm working with and remove the moulded on doors. Then I think it will be prudent to paint the inside of the nacelles and the new resin wheel well inserts before assembly.

 

All of the photos that I can find (hint: there must be others!) show Interior Green for the wheel wells, and either Glossy Sea Blue or Aluminum gear legs. The blue gear legs seem to be present in military photos; the aluminum legs are typically seen on warbird restorations. Any chance the wheel wells were also Glossy Sea Blue on in-service aircraft?

 

Cheers,

Bill

[heloman1]

Comiong along very nicely Bill good to see you back on it.

Colin

[Giorgio N]

Glad to see you restarting this kit Bill, looking forward to this build !

Wheel wells in blue ? I wouldn't be surprised actually...

Edited after a quick look through the ML books on the type: most pictures seem to show dark wheel wells. Only in a couple the wells look lighter. Mind, lighter, not light... It's true that it's hard to get much light in these areas, therefore it may be that interior green painted surfaces would look dark too.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Giorgio N

[Navy Bird]

I did some "bracketing" in my research, and it seems that the F6F Hellcat (when painted overall Glossy Sea Blue) has Glossy Sea Blue wheel wells, and the F8F Bearcat (also painted overall Glossy Sea Blue) has Interior Green wheel wells. So where does that leave the F7F Tigercat? The F6F is a little bit earlier than the F7F and F8F, but I don't know if that means anything. The overwhelming choice of modellers who have built the Tigercat have sprayed the wheel wells Interior Green. I think I'll do that, but still paint the gear legs Glossy Sea Blue. That was done on the Bearcat, as well.

 

I would feel better if Tommy chimed in before I start spraying, though.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[hacker]

Going to build a Tigercat as well but the N3 night fighter version. Got just about everything but the decals. I need Starfighter Decals 1/72 Grumman F7F-3N Tigercat Part I but it is one l am having a hard time pinning down. What l am curious about is what you get in that Aires detail set? Looks interesting

[Navy Bird]

Hacker, I can't help you with the decals. Sorry.

 

The Aires detail set is a mixed bag. The resin and PE cockpit is quite nice, and since my Monogram kit has no cockpit at all to speak of, it really fills a void. The resin engines are exquisite, but the engine bearers are useless and need to be replaced. As I proceed with my build, you'll see that I'll be departing from the Aires version considerably, skipping the engine bearers completely. The resin nose gear well is nice, but the PE main gear wells are beyond absurd and completely useless. You get a PE scissors link for the nose gear, but not for the main gear. The resin gear doors and PE actuators are nice. I suppose if you add it all up, about half of the set is worthwhile and the other half not so much. I found it interesting that the things I've identified as being not so good are not present in the photos on the box - in other words, Aires couldn't make that stuff work either!   

 

The Starfighter resin main gear wells look great, but there are some problems, especially since you still have to use the landing gear legs that come with the kit. As you can see in this picture, the main gear leg attaches via a tab on one side and a peg on the other. Pretty clever of Monogram, as this sets the angle of the leg.

 

 

The problem I've encountered is that the resin tank on the roof of the resin wheel well interferes with the landing gear leg. Unless I can figure out a way to have the tank and the gear leg occupy the same space at the same time, it won't assemble. Here you can see how close the tab receptacle is to the tank:

 

 

A second fit issue is that the horizontal crossbar that spans the main leg and the angled rod hits the top of the tank. Monogram have you leave that horizontal crossbar in, but I'm going to look a photos of the real thing to see if it's really there.

 

The tank is an integral part of the roof of the well, as it's all one piece. I think what I'm going to do is to glue just the tab (using my crazy ultimate super glue) and tape the rest together like this while the glue sets:

 

 

The peg on the opposite side goes into a round receptacle, which I won't glue. Once the glue is cured, I'll have the leg in the correct position and angle. I'll undo the tape and then cut away the angled rod and the horizontal crossbar. The Aires set gives you a nice PE replacement for the angled rod anyway, which is much more authentic. If it turns out that I need the horizontal crossbar, I'll add it back in, but a bit higher so it doesn't hit the top of the tank. Then, I'll have to shave off the side of the tank so that the leg will clear it. Kind of a pain, but it's more exciting this way!

 

I think before I do any of this, though, I have to finish the scribing on the nacelles. It will be easier to do that now before everything gets assembled.

 

I hate scribing. It's the bane of modelling.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Navy Bird]

Now I'm confused. (It doesn't take much to bring on this condition!) ESCI/Ertl/AMT/Italeri would have you believe that the tank is located towards the rear of the wheel well:

 

 

The real thing would have the tank just to the rear of the main gear legs, not right underneath them:

 

 

This shot is looking forward, and the yellow tank is definitely just a bit aft of the main gear. Both Aires and Starfighter have two tanks that can be seen from each wheel well, one is located directly underneath the main gear legs, and the other is located forward towards the engine mount. I don't see the second tank in this last photo. I see the back of the engine, but not the second tank.

 

I don't know how much I can rely on that photo, as it's from a restored warbird. It may not be representative of a Tigercat during the late 40s or early 50s. Not sure I can rely on the ESCI kit either, as it could have been researched from a restored warbird. More research!

 

OK, let's have a look at this one, which is from an aircraft that is definitely not restored. Whether it's authentic from just post-war, I can't say. But the tank seems to be in the same position relative to the main gear legs as the photo above, and the second tank is visible farther forward closer to the engine. The photo is also looking forward:

 

 

I think what I'm dealing with is Starfighter doing the best they can to work with the Monogram kit, whose main gear assemblies do not resemble the real thing. I think it's best that I stick with the course of action I outlined earlier and just make the best of it.

 

That last photo convinced me that the wheel wells should be Interior Green!

 

Heck, all this stuff is on the bottom anyway, who's ever going to look at it?

 

Cheers,

Bill

[David H]

Heck, all this stuff is on the bottom anyway, who's ever going to look at it?

Cheers,

Bill

HA!! My point exactly.

david

[LanceB]

Nice looking build, a shame about those Starfighter wheel wells, they are "backwards" with the tank on the wrong end. Looks like you have a good "fix" going (I had a suggestion, but re-read, and your idea looks better...)

By the way, for those who want better engines but don't want the individual cylinders of the Aires set for this kit, Quickboost have a solution:

http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/QB72133

Edited April 21, 2015 by LanceB

[Navy Bird]

On 4/20/2015 at 20:41, LanceB said:

Nice looking build, a shame about those Starfighter wheel wells, they are "backwards" with the tank on the wrong end. Looks like you have a good "fix" going (I had a suggestion, but re-read, and your idea looks better...)

By the way, for those who want better engines but don't want the individual cylinders of the Aires set for this kit, Quickboost have a solution:

http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/QB72133

 

Thanks, Lance. I don't think Starfighter has it backwards, their tank is just a bit too far forward. I should have posted this picture, too, as it shows the aft end of the wheel well looking towards the rear. It should help explain where the tank is relative to the entire length of the well:

 

 

I think the ESCI kit is the one that's weird, as I couldn't find any photos that show the tank in that position. The biggest problem with the Starfighter wheel wells is the interference with the gear leg, but I think I can fix that, and make Monogram's gear legs look a bit better in the process.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[hacker]

The problem l see is that the Starfighter part makes the wheel well lòok too shallow. To me the pictures of the real aircraft shows me the top of the wheel well is also the bottom of the wing. Being a diehard scratch builder l would use that as a starting point using the kit wing and altering it accordingly. The 1/48 italeri version is partly right but they did not carry it far enough especially towards the rear part.

[Tailspin Turtle]

I did some "bracketing" in my research, and it seems that the F6F Hellcat (when painted overall Glossy Sea Blue) has Glossy Sea Blue wheel wells, and the F8F Bearcat (also painted overall Glossy Sea Blue) has Interior Green wheel wells. So where does that leave the F7F Tigercat? The F6F is a little bit earlier than the F7F and F8F, but I don't know if that means anything. The overwhelming choice of modellers who have built the Tigercat have sprayed the wheel wells Interior Green. I think I'll do that, but still paint the gear legs Glossy Sea Blue. That was done on the Bearcat, as well.

I would feel better if Tommy chimed in before I start spraying, though.

Cheers,

Bill

Short answer - I don't know. There is some evidence that Grumman left the wheel wells in zinc chromate (except maybe for the blue F6Fs since they were accustomed to painting wheel wells the same color as the underside of the airplane). Wheel wells were subsequently painted blue at the first Navy overhaul. (I also have a couple of pictures of brand new, still on the production line F7F-2s with light colored inner sides of the main landing gear doors.)

n.b. It's going to take all the weight you can get in the nose and some in the engine nacelles to keep it from tail sitting...

[hacker]

l noticed that factory finish for atleast the landing gear was white (could be silver too) in some b/w pictures. Later it was painted the airframe colour of either navy blue or in the case of the night fighter version black. Good colour pictures of in service planes wheel wells are hard to find.

[Navy Bird]

On 4/21/2015 at 07:47, hacker said:

The problem l see is that the Starfighter part makes the wheel well lòok too shallow. To me the pictures of the real aircraft shows me the top of the wheel well is also the bottom of the wing. Being a diehard scratch builder l would use that as a starting point using the kit wing and altering it accordingly. The 1/48 italeri version is partly right but they did not carry it far enough especially towards the rear part.

 

I'm not sure that the "top of the wheel well is also the bottom of the wing." It's more likely the bottom of the TOP wing surface, or something like that. It clearly isn't the bottom of the wing, that's what both Monogram and Italeri did with their kits and, like you say, it's too shallow. The Starfighter resin piece is designed to rest on the bottom of the wing. I can't fault them for that, what they've done is a huge improvement over the kit, and I don't think you can expect every modeller who buys the set to start cutting out a huge piece of the lower wing.

 

Luckily (I think), I'm not much of a scratchbuilder so I won't be cutting up the wing. I'll make do with the Starfighter set as it is.

Regarding colour photos of the wheel well, I think the unrestored photo that I posted above is about as close as I'm going to get. It's clear to me that the wheel well was painted in Interior Green. Most of the black & white photos I have of Tigercats from the post-war period show very dark landing gear legs, and when that is paired with an obviously Glossy Sea Blue fuselage, I'll go with that same colour for the legs.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Navy Bird]

On 4/21/2015 at 09:25, Tailspin Turtle said:

n.b. It's going to take all the weight you can get in the nose and some in the engine nacelles to keep it from tail sitting...

 

Yeah, I was afraid of that. I may end up with the old 55 gallon drum trick, or let it tail-sit. Plenty of them did that in real life!

 

The way that the resin engines will be shown, and with the resin wheel well taking up space, there will be no place to put any weight in the nacelles.    

 

Cheers,

Bill

[LanceB]

The problem l see is that the Starfighter part makes the wheel well lòok too shallow. To me the pictures of the real aircraft shows me the top of the wheel well is also the bottom of the wing. Being a diehard scratch builder l would use that as a starting point using the kit wing and altering it accordingly. The 1/48 italeri version is partly right but they did not carry it far enough especially towards the rear part.

Looking at Bill's pic here:

http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/wrgilman/media/Grumman%20F7F%20Tigercat/Tigercat021.jpg.html

The section directly under where the gear mounts, which is stepped in the Starfighter part, is the wing spar. So the "roof" of the well here would be very close to the bottom of the wing, as AMT/Italeri did it, however behind that section I think as Bill said we are seeing the underside of the upper wing skin.

*edit* Looking at Bill's pics again, I think I have found the problem. The arch with lightening holes in it at the forward end of the Starfighter bit should be right at the leading edge of the gear well opening. However if you put it there, the "step" would impinge on the MLG mounting lugs, which is why the step fits just foward of the lugs and the tank is under them and causing Bill vexation.

Properly, that whole resin bit should be mounted deeper into the wing/nacelle, and further aft, but I don't think both are possible as the part is designed. If it fit deeper, that arch would probably be floating in the air, not touching the bottom of the nacelle at the LE of the opening. If pulled aft, I think one would need to reshape the sides of the floor to make it narrow enough and short enough to fit the nacelle. One would also need to rethink the mounting of the gear strut. Probably remove the lugs in the kit nacelle walls entirely, shorten the strut the appropriate amount, drill the strut and the "step" in the Starfighter part directly under it to accept a metal pin, and mount the strut directly to the step using that pin. The gear well would still be too shallow, but at least the forward arch, the step and the tank would be closer to their correct fore-aft location within the well.

*edit part deux* I was just reading back in the thread, following Bill's thoughts on the Aires wells and all, and looking at the parts a thought struck me: what if Aires meant for the builder to remove the section of the lower wing half that is inside the nacelle and aft of the spar? Then the "step" they have you bend into the brass roofing is at the level of the lower wing skin, then there is a step down into a modeler-created hole and the ribbed section of the roofing is designed to fit against the inside of the upper wing piece? Would that make sense?

Oh, and Bill, I also read your lamentation about missing an Aoshima Tigercat. I have built one. Trust me on this, you really do not want one. It is a horrid little monster, full of inaccuracies. Almost none of the shapes are right, the wing is in the wrong place, the nacelles and cowlings need to be completely redone, plus new props and engines, scratchbuilt landing gear, wing LE intakes need adding, the list just goes on and on. I built one, as an F7F-2D with a spare F8F canopy mounted on top, and overall am happy with the results but I can only recommend the kit to a serious masochist. If you want a -1 or -2, just buy a Monogram kit and reshape the rudder yourself. Far less painful.

Edited April 22, 2015 by LanceB

[Navy Bird]

Thanks, Lance, that makes sense. I really think that Starfighter designed the set so that any serious modification of the kit wasn't necessary. They traded accuracy vs. looks good enough. I'll probably make some minor adjustments and work with it as it is.

 

As far as the Aires set goes, the sidewalls and the PE reinforcements wouldn't be tall enough to do as you suggest. Aires intended the large PE piece to sit on the bottom of the wing, just like Starfighter do. It's even shown that way in the instructions - no cutting of any holes in the bottom of the wing shown.

 

Thanks for the information on the Aoshima kit. I *almost* bought one at a contest a couple of weeks ago, but the guy wanted too much money. I had a good look at what was in the box, and it looked pretty crude, but typical for that time period. I know the rudder was different, but I think the cowlings and spinners were too. There's are good comparisons in both the Squadron and Ginter Tigercat books. I was thinking about modelling one of the early Tigercats that were deployed to China right after the war, but I will put that on hold for another day!

 

Cheers,

Bill