That's it - I've had enough of Harder and Steenbeck

[Mike]

Wish I'd known you were using the 0.15 nozzle Chris. That's way too finicky for my liking. I swapped mine out for a 0.2 and it transformed the brush. It still clogs occasionally, but it's a lot better than it was. I suspect that the pigment particles in model paint might be a bit too large for the smaller nozzle. You'll need a nozzle, needle & aircap, but it's a lot cheaper than getting a new brush

[cmatthewbacon]

I'd certainly say that 0.15mm sounds WAAAYYYY small. I've got a 0.5mm in the Iwata 95% of the time, although I do have a 0.3mm with a crown cap for real close up work, but that only comes out on very rare occasions. I think that 0.15mm is too small for most of the paints we use. Vallejo also seems very prone to the pigment settling and then being almost impossible to reblend smoothly. You only need a few tiny clumps in your Model Air to block a nozzle that small...

bestest,

M.

Edited January 7, 2013 by cmatthewbacon

[noeyedears]

I find 0.3 the best general size. i have a 0.2 and use this for real delicate bits as the paint has to be thin and you cant get a lot through it, you have more control over where the paint goes but usualy requires multiple coats and a steady trigger finger.

dont know how much you thin but i do about 50/50 paint/thinners for tamiya flat at 22 25 psi , a bit less thinners for tamiya gloss at 20 psi . 50/50 for xtracolor too at 20 and alclad straight out of the bottle at about 12 psi.

halfords / tamiya primer decanted without thinning at about 22 25 psi.

remember 20 psi on my gauge could mean anything in reality! i have 2 moisture traps, one on the pump and one on the airbrush, and a LONG hose. this will affect the actual pressure but its always raining here so ill live with it.

i use an iwata hpc plus, swapping out the nozzle/cap combination but using a standard 0.3 needle for both (one for each nozzle so they seat correctly) iwata do not do a 0.2 needle for my brush but they say the standard needle is ok.

Edited January 7, 2013 by noeyedears

[denstore]

I would say that the H&S 0.15mm seem to be a problem child. Probably it is on the border of whats usable with modeling paint.

But, I use 0.18mm@10psi with thinned Model Air without any real problems, and I can spray some of the Model Air colors unthinned through my 0.23mm@10psi.

I would say that it isn't the thinning alone that is the source of your problems.

Edited January 7, 2013 by denstore

[Radleigh]

You wrote TAP not TRAP . . . the complete opposite of what you meant (I thought)!!

Apologies, stupid keyboard needs pressing harder!

[gcn]

With my H&S I use the 0.4mm needle for everything, mainly because I'm too lazy to change to 0.2mm and it works fine.

I think the advice with spraying neat thinner or water and reporting back on that is a good starting point.

[Iain Ogilvie]

My Royal Sovereign is running something like a 0.15 needle/head and the only thing I can get it to reliably spray is inks - so I'm not surprised you're having issues!

Iain

Edited January 7, 2013 by Iain (32SIG)

[SaintsPhil]

This thread makes interesting reading, as I nearly posted something similar a few weeks back!

I've got a H&S Evo and I have very similar problems to what you're describing here. I've had the AB about 2 years and started off using Vallejo model air and Tamiya paints and got on ok, I even managed free hand Camo on a 1/72 Harrier.

When we moved house I got a garage to set up my AB in, which means I can spray all sorts of nasty stuff!! So I moved to Alclads and Mr Color paints. After a bit of a learning curve I realised what you can and can't spray together. I've pretty much ditched the Model air (although I still use them to brush with). I found I could only use them if the AB was completely dry of solvent, ie start of a painting session.

After a while I came to try freehand Camo again and had to give up, the over spray was terrible. I tried everything I could think of, pressure, paint mix, distance, but nothing fixed it. I eventually sent the AB for a service and the nozzle had a split, caused by a slight bend in the needle tip! I also had all the seals replaced with Celulose resistant ones (PTFE I think). This cured most of the issue. I also changed my cleaning routine. No longer do I soak any parts in thinners/cleaner and I only strip the brush down every so often to deep clean, normally I just flush it through. All was good until recently...

I've noticed recently I get the spitting you mention, more noticeable spraying gloss varnish than anything else. It's almost like a bead builds up on the needle guard then blasts off onto the model. I can't see why this would happen unless something is out of line. I've also had trouble with the trigger becoming sticky and the needle binding in the nozzle. I've put this down to poor cleaning on my part though.

Sorry I've rambled a bit but maybe we have a similar problem?

I wonder if what both our AB need is a another service?

Hope that helps!

Phil

[Chris Jephcott]

Phil - it sounds like it's a very similar problem.

I've been playing about with the 0.4 needle this morning, trying to see what pressures work and what pressures don't work - and one thing that I've noticed is that regardlessly of the pressure, when I press the trigger mechanism down, I am initially getting a splatter of paint - before a finer line comes. I've had this since Day 1 of having the airbrush and have worked with it (and around it - simply by not using the 0.4 needle head!) but I'm still convinced that there must be some cause. It's almost like the needle draws more paint than is actually needed and the second that the air flow starts, it's blasts the contents out.

I've tried various work arounds with this, and yet again, this has been a reoccuring problem with both Tamiya and Model Air paints - but there's got to be some logical reason behind this.

I think it's time the thing got a service anyway - and I like the idea of having cellulose resistant seals in there. I suspect the root cause though is probably my poor cleaning regieme!!! It normally is...

Chris

[SaintsPhil]

Yeah I get the same thing with the 0.3, I always start off the model and work on. Could that be a compressor issue though? Instant blast of higher pressure before it settles maybe....

[Mike]

Two things I can think of might be causing the spatter:

1. Check that the needle is fully forward before commencing spraying. I usually push the needle forward from the back with my finger while I tighten the retention screw, to ensure it doesn't creep back.
   
2. Don't draw the trigger back before starting the airflow. Doing so allows paint to escape and bead on the tip, which then gets blown onto your model. Always start the air first.
   
3. No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition.
   

HTH

[denstore]

I agree with Mike. The reason for spatter before normal paint is usually because the seal between nozzle and needle isnt tight enough. Try to gently rotate the needle while pushing it in place. And bent needles will cause this problem as well, since the needle won't seat properly.

In my most personal opinion, I find some of the H&S airbrushes to wear quite fast. I've had on Evolution and one Infinity, and I didn't like either. They look nice, and some people seem to get excellent results from them, but I feel that most of the japanese brands have a more solid feel to them, especially after a few years use.

[Mike]

My experience differs a little from Magnus' in that I find the wear limited to the chrome that is applied to the innards. I've had it wear off on even the CR2 model, but I seem to get a good length of service from my "bits", with most replacements due to my own clumsiness A couple of needle seals have needed replacing due to wear, but when you consider I've had one of the brushes for four years or more, that's not too bad.

I've used an Iwata TR-1 before, and although I found it tricky to take-down, I did like the results I got with it, and I got on well with the trigger after I became used to it. I do still like my Inifinits though

[viscount806x]

I use an iwata hp-c plus. it comes with a 0.3 nozzle but i also have the 0.2 nozzle/cap for it. works for me!

Same here, never used the 0.2 nozzle I bought though...

[denstore]

My experience differs a little from Magnus' in that I find the wear limited to the chrome that is applied to the innards. I've had it wear off on even the CR2 model, but I seem to get a good length of service from my "bits", with most replacements due to my own clumsiness A couple of needle seals have needed replacing due to wear, but when you consider I've had one of the brushes for four years or more, that's not too bad.

I've used an Iwata TR-1 before, and although I found it tricky to take-down, I did like the results I got with it, and I got on well with the trigger after I became used to it. I do still like my Inifinits though

I'm not that worried about the chrome. I have a couple of old airbrushes that are worn down to the brass. But what I noticed with the Infinity I had, was that it got looser and looser every time I assembled it, and that needles and nozzles did wear out rather quickly.

My guess is that H&S look at it as those parts are supposed to wear out, and replaced. And the spares for H&S are rather cheap, compared to Iwata.

Soft material in needles and nozzles have their benefits as well. They make for a better seal, since they conform to each other. But they must be replaced more often.

Other brands have different solutions to this. Iwata use steel needles, and softer nozzles, I think. Grex is almost the opposite, with stainless steel nozzles and softer needles. And I suppose that there are different positive and negative sides with everything.

[Mike]

You probably use your brushes more than I do Magnus - I don't exactly have a lightning build rate

[corporate]

...My gut feeling is buying an Iwata may not solve the problem but that there's something going on with all the paint you're using, possibly stuff sitting in the system which reactivate and reacts to other types of paint.......

Agree strongly. It took me quite a while to get used to airbrushing, probably through natural stupidity; at first I tried using old/weird/cheap airbrushes and that was a big mistake; but even after I got into Iwatas I wasted loads of paint and thought it was a disaster, simply because it took me ages to find the right paints & techniques to suit me. I have three Iwatas - HP-C Plus, HP-C, and HP-B - and like them a lot, but H&S have an excellent reputation and I doubt very much if it's the airbrush that's causing the OP's problems. Perseverance and experimentation are the key - boring but unavoidable....

Tony

[denstore]

Hmmh, you are talking about the master of non-building, Mike. Last year, zero finished models. Year before that, zero.....

I do paint a bit though.....

[Smiffy]

I agree with what the other guys have said, the 0.15 is too small for stuff like Vallejo, but works perfectly fine with thinner stuff like Alclads. I was using a 0.2 for all my general purpose acrylic spraying and then I'd bung the 0.4 in if I wanted to shoot enamels. Recently I have been having issues with my 0.2 needle/nozzle clogging up with Vallejo and Tamiya paint (no matter how thin it was). Not sure where the problem lies. I fitted a new nozzle and checked the needle, but I was still having problems.

So, I just switched to using the 0.4 needle and lowered the pressure a tad. Seems to be working fine.

[tank152]

Get a Iwata, you know it makes sense! I've now got 3, a Revolution CR 0.5 needle that I use for priming and klearing etc, a HP-CH 0.3 needle which I use for general stuff and a HP-SB 0.2 needle which I use for mottling etc. I've never had to replace anything on any of them and the oldest one is just over 5 years old and its had all sorts of stuff shot through it, from etch primer to 2 pack clear.

Personally I think H & S airbrushes look tacky, i've had a play with them on Paul's stand at many shows and just don't like the feel of them either, they definitely aren't as well built as Iwatas, there certainly seems to be quite a few people after spare parts for them as well.

Its worth remembering paints such as MA have pigments in them that are far bigger than those found in Tamiya and Gunze personally I don't think they are worth all the trouble that goes with using them, i've had them continuously block even the Revolution and it's 0.5 needle. Using Tamiya and Gunze thinned with Mr Colour thinners is your passport to stress free spraying.

[SaintsPhil]

I tend to agree about parts wearing out on H&S, I'm wondering if as well as seals I need a new nozzle and or needle. The combined cost got me thinking about upgrading, or at least investing in a second brush.

You are of course correct that excellent results can be achieved with the H&S. I asked the guy building the 2 Mig 23 which AB he got his stunning results with, expecting the answer to be a top of the range Iawata....of course it was an H&S Evo...

[TimB]

I have accumulated several airbrushes over the past 30 years - an Iwata HP-SBS was my best until I bought the H&S Infinity. I now use pretty much only the Infinity with the 0.4 nozzle. I'm on second one of those as I noticed that I had bashed the old one and distorted the tip. I now use Tamiya and Gunze Sanyo Mr Color, with the Gunze thinners for both. In my experience the combination of Gunze thinner and either paint is almost foolproof. After an airbrush demo at SMW a few years ago by Brett Green, I also started using much thinner paint - 4 -5 medium brush loads in 1.0-1.5 ml of thinner, mixed in the cup. Makes a difference.

I do get the spatter you mention, but only if 1) I have not properly cleaned the brush after several sessions 2) I use Xtracrylix, Alclad primer or similar. Bottom line - I nearly bought another Infinity to do Alclad last year, but could not justify the expense - I started reusing the Iwata for it, but still preser the Infinity Infinitly!

Regards

Tim

[SaintsPhil]

Well I've just come in from garage after spraying a couple of Typhoons. Gunze Aqueous paints with levelling thinners, got splatter all over the wing on one. As mentioned in my first post, the paint seemed to build up in one of the holes in the needle guard then blast off onto the kit. This happened mid way through spraying, so not the splatter described on first letting air through. This was in the first jet, so I carried on, using a cotton bud to keep the needle guard clean. The brush was stripped and cleaned at the end of the last session.

I still think this is happening as something's out of alignment very slightly, forcing the jet out just off centre. I'm going to try a deep clean now, and maybe order a new set of seals.

Phil

[PDH]

I bought an H&S Evolution Silverline 2 in 1 about a year ago. It came with the .15mm installed. Couldn't get on with it, wouldn't spray and paint seemed to build up on the needle guard very quickly.

Had a chat with a couple of people and a professional model maker who won't use anything other than H&S recommended the .2mm needle and needle guard from an Infinity. So I changed them and now its virtually perfect. Easy to spot paint build up on the need le guard and sprays pretty well. I usually use acrylics and thin 50/50 with manufacturers thinner or X-20A and spray around 25-28psi.

The only thing about the change to the front end was I had to buy a needle, noozle and air cap as the needle guard on the Infinity is push fit as opposed to the Evolution screw fit. Cost was around £40.

To me the great advantage of H&S is their construction with ease of breakdown making cleaning easier) and use of standard parts. In the main 99% of parts fit any of their airbrushes.

I like their feel, finding the Iwata more chunky and heavier. I also have an Iwata Eclipse HP CS. I do not like the paint cup on the Iwata. Not removable and big.

Edited January 8, 2013 by PDH

[c.smith10]

For what it's worth I have the H&S infinity with both the 0.15and 0.4 needle sets. I have used almost every paint under the sun and I have found either Tamiya or gunze thinned with mr color levelling thinner to give the best results even with the 0.15 needle! I still get the occasional clog at the tip but a quick swipe of thinners over the tip wih a cotton but sorts it out!

I also start the air with the brush away from the model to avoid any potential splatter!

Not sure if that helps or not

Cheers