Help with spitfire sky needed

[Nick Millman]

Really? But aren't these the colours that they actually painted the aircraft of WWII?

The Sky Blue used by the RAF is No.16 in the Ministry of Aircraft Production (MAP) paint colour standards whereas the Sky Blue used for things like painting window frames and garage doors was No.1 in the BS 381C (1931) paint colour standards for commercial paint manufacturers. But they are both paint colour standards not the actual paints. The paint made by commercial paint manufacturers was supposed to match those standards so that if you bought Sky Blue paint from Bloggs & Co it would be pretty much the same colour as Sky Blue paint bought from McTavish & Sons. That was the theory. In practice it didn't and doesn't quite work like that.

MAP Sky Blue is Munsell 6.1 B 7.6/1.6 whereas BS 381C No.1 Sky Blue is supposedly Munsell 5.5 G 8.1/4.1. Difference between the two is 17.4 where 2.0 or less = a close match.

[Edgar]

D.T.D. 517 was the type of paint "discovered" by Joe Smith, which the Air Ministry accepted as the ideal paint, for the Spitfire, in August 1942. There appear to have been many attempts to come up with a smooth cellulose paint, but there was never the required "mattness," no matter how hard the manufacturers tried. Together with the new paint, a new regime of filling, smoothing, priming and painting the wing leading edges was also instigated, so that panel lines and rivet "divots" disappeared.

There are hints, in Kew's files, that the Typhoon (and Tempest?) and Beaufighter went over to the synthetic paint, as well.

[Mark12]

The Sky Blue used by the RAF is No.16 in the Ministry of Aircraft Production (MAP) paint colour standards whereas the Sky Blue used for things like painting window frames and garage doors was No.1 in the BS 381C (1931) paint colour standards for commercial paint manufacturers. But they are both paint colour standards not the actual paints. The paint made by commercial paint manufacturers was supposed to match those standards so that if you bought Sky Blue paint from Bloggs & Co it would be pretty much the same colour as Sky Blue paint bought from McTavish & Sons. That was the theory. In practice it didn't and doesn't quite work like that.

MAP Sky Blue is Munsell 6.1 B 7.6/1.6 whereas BS 381C No.1 Sky Blue is supposedly Munsell 5.5 G 8.1/4.1. Difference between the two is 17.4 where 2.0 or less = a close match.

Well are we painting aeroplanes or houses in WWII? Surely a main contractor to the Air Ministry/MAP will paint as the works drawing specifies using the stores reference specified and a sub contractor to the main contractor will do like wise, sourcing their own paint possibly. AID inspectors will then use their MAP colour chips to ensure that the specification and colour are correct to drawing. ..and if not, reject or issue a deviation.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Mark12

[Fernando]

Deep Sky? I understand it was a colour much similar to Azure Blue or PRU Blue.

Fernando

Edited September 13, 2012 by Fernando

[Edgar]

Note that B.S.381C did not exist until post-war, and British Standards were not involved in wartime colours. This should give an idea of how Sky blue was involved pre-war:-

[Welkin]

I find that Tamiya XF-8 (Flat Blue) is reasonably close for Deep Sky.

[Nick Millman]

Note that B.S.381C did not exist until post-war,

Actually it did. BS 381 was first introduced in 1930 and published a range of standardised paint colours. In 1931 it became 'BS381C: 1931' with additional colours and set out the paint colours available from most paint manufacturers for the next 25 years. Reduced versions were issued in 1943 and 1944. The amended ranges that appeared from 1939-45 specified the uses for the various colours. The three categories were:

a. General Purposes

b. Special Purpose Colours

c. Colours Used on Public Service Vehicles.

Other wartime British Standards:-

BS381C: 1944 Colours for Ready Mixed Paints.

BS987: 1942 Camouflage Paints.

BS987C: 1942 Camouflage Colours. Incl. Amendments 1 & 2.

BS1056: 1942 Painting of Buildings in Wartime.

BS1124: 1942 Household Paints for External Use.

BS381C: 1943 Colours for Ready Mixed Paints.

BS1128: 1943 Recommendations for Primers for Camouflage Paints.

BS381C: 1944 Colours for Ready Mixed Paints.

[Nick Millman]

Deep Sky? I understand it was a colour much similar to Azure Blue or PRU Blue.

Fernando

There is no useful FS 595b comparison for Deep Sky (FS 15080 is closest @ 3.01) but as a measure of its deeper hue the difference calculation to Azure Blue is 34.9 where 2.0 or less is a close match. Azure Blue is Munsell 4.2 PB 6.2/6.1 whereas Deep Sky is 2.5 PB 2.7/6.4. Diffuse reflectivity is Azure Blue 30% and Deep Sky 8%.

You can see the colours by entering their hex numbers 7D9EC5 and 00456D here:-

http://www.colorpicker.com/

(Deep Sky is the darker blue!)

Deep Sky is somewhat similar to Dark Med Blue which is Munsell 2.9 PB 2.9/5.1 but not as dull. Difference between the two is 3.31. Closest FS 595b to Dk Med Blue is 35052 @ 3.60.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Nick Millman

[Mottlemaster]

The Sky Blue used by the RAF is No.16 in the Ministry of Aircraft Production (MAP) paint colour standards whereas the Sky Blue used for things like painting window frames and garage doors was No.1 in the BS 381C (1931) paint colour standards for commercial paint manufacturers. But they are both paint colour standards not the actual paints. The paint made by commercial paint manufacturers was supposed to match those standards so that if you bought Sky Blue paint from Bloggs & Co it would be pretty much the same colour as Sky Blue paint bought from McTavish & Sons. That was the theory. In practice it didn't and doesn't quite work like that.

MAP Sky Blue is Munsell 6.1 B 7.6/1.6 whereas BS 381C No.1 Sky Blue is supposedly Munsell 5.5 G 8.1/4.1. Difference between the two is 17.4 where 2.0 or less = a close match.

So the sky blue no1 was used to paint garage doors

Now i know what i will use to re paint mine

Not really. Luftwaffe colours are a can of worms, especially the late war stuff.

Mostly the RAF are pretty dull!

Very few odd field applied schemes [except Malta], mostly a standard set of colours, rules usually followed.

There are lots of changes in the 39-40 era which can confuse the casual dabbler though.

I really really suggest googling 'Ducimus Camouflage and Markings RAF pdf' as this will get you downloads of a series of 12 monographs on RAF fighter camo in NW Europe.

These have unfortunately been out of print for 35 or 40 years, so the only people who don't make money off these are used book sellers, but are still your best primer on the subject. Just a shame they didn't do middle east/far east or bombers, or coastal command.

Ducimus also did 10 on USAAF subjects, which are also excellent and well worth the bother of downloading.

For RAF colours Xtracolour or Xtracrylix are highly regarded as good matches apart from their azure blue.

Bear in mind you are a member of what has got to be one of the best modelling forums on the web, probaly the best for British subjects, with some serious experts posting.

My final bit, the site search facilty is not always helpful, often more relevant results can be obtained by using google and adding in Britmodeller to your search term.

HTH

T

I do agree that the expertise to be found could i doubt not be found anywhere else . How many Hobby boss Spits have been ruind by modelers blindly following their painting instructions ?

Thank you All for taking my request for info and running with it

[Mark12]

Type S was for "smooth" as opposed to some of the "rough" finishes associated with ultra-matt paints.

Quote from James Goulding :- The new colour, first used on bombers, was a pale blue green, and was officially known as Sky. All the surface colour paints of this period were given the suffix 'Type S', but for some reason the suffix became solely applied in documents and publications to Sky.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Mark12

[Edgar]

Actually it did. BS 381 was first introduced in 1930 and published a range of standardised paint colours. In 1931 it became 'BS381C: 1931' with additional colours and set out the paint colours available from most paint manufacturers for the next 25 years. Reduced versions were issued in 1943 and 1944. The amended ranges that appeared from 1939-45 specified the uses for the various colours. The three categories were:

a. General Purposes

b. Special Purpose Colours

c. Colours Used on Public Service Vehicles.

Other wartime British Standards:-

BS381C: 1944 Colours for Ready Mixed Paints.

BS987: 1942 Camouflage Paints.

BS987C: 1942 Camouflage Colours. Incl. Amendments 1 & 2.

BS1056: 1942 Painting of Buildings in Wartime.

BS1124: 1942 Household Paints for External Use.

BS381C: 1943 Colours for Ready Mixed Paints.

BS1128: 1943 Recommendations for Primers for Camouflage Paints.

BS381C: 1944 Colours for Ready Mixed Paints.

Sorry about that, but you can lay the blame, squarely, with British Standards, who, in their leaflets, state, " BS381 was first published in 1930, and a revised version was issued in 1948 as BS 381C "Colours for ready mixed paints." They make no mention of any other items produced during the war years.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Edgar

[John]

1944 Revision:

John

[gingerbob]

Well are we painting aeroplanes or houses in WWII? Surely a main contractor to the Air Ministry/MAP will paint as the works drawing specifies using the stores reference specified and a sub contractor to the main contractor will do like wise, sourcing their own paint possibly. AID inspectors will then use their MAP colour chips to ensure that the specification and colour are correct to drawing. ..and if not reject or issue a deviation.

'Mark', You're new around here, so can be forgiven for this lapse of (or to) logic, but that sort of reasoning isn't always well received in these parts!

Sorry about that, but you can lay the blame, squarely, with British Standards... They make no mention of any other items produced during the war years.

They were probably considered State secrets.

[Edgar]

1944 Revision:

It says BS381

[Mark12]

It has been suggested that BS381 Sky Blue was used on some RAF aircraft in the Summer of 1940. As Nick has pointed out, there are other explanations for a colour similar to this appearing on some artifacts.

Air Ministry Sky Blue was developed pre-War for use on target drones but was replaced by Sky when that became the standard undersurface colour for fighters. AM Sky Blue is an extremely pale blue grey. There is no documentary evidence that AM Sky Blue was ever used for any other application.

John

Unfortunately the 'experts' advising on the 'Battle of Britain' film in 1968 were not convinced.

Here is a shot at the press line up prior to filming and at this stage the surface finish had not been 'distressed' by the technicians.

The red centre diameter of the fuselage roundels however were reduced prior to filming

Edited September 14, 2012 by Mark12

[John]

Unfortunately the 'experts' advising on the 'Battle of Britain' film in 1968 were not convinced.

Here is a shot at the press line up prior to filming and at this stage the surface finish had not been 'distressed' by the technicians.

The red centre diameter of the fuselage roundels however were reduced prior to filming

Sorry, I can't see the connection between my post you quoted and that photo.

John

[Mark12]

Sorry, I can't see the connection between my post you quoted and that photo.

John

The under surfaces of all the RAF participants in the 'Battle of Briatin' film of 1968 were painted 'Sky Blue' as per the example shown.

We now know that they were wrong, along with the Battle of Britain Memorial flight liveries of the 1960's and a number of the model making instructions and paint colours around the world at that time.

[Nick Millman]

Two more aspects to this.

Firstly when Sky (aka "duck egg blue") was introduced for Fighter Command in 1940 there was a temporary shortage of the correct paint so units were authorised to mix their own, resulting in colours that did not match the Sky standard and in some cases appeared closer to Sky Blue. This was possibly because personnel only had the description "duck egg blue" and the suggested paint colours to be mixed to go on and had no sample swatches to match to. But the whole subject is fraught with hypothesis, claim and counter claim. It is cyclic too, coming up on forums every few months and being argued anew. There is however anecdotal and some claimed documentary evidence for unit mixing from existing stores paints.

Secondly I've been intrigued by the various blueish or creamy (off-white) appearances of Sky in various colour photographs so I've been conducting a number of experiments with cellulose based paints and the original pigments. This was prompted by a tip from Edgar about issues (from Peter Cooke originally I think) in preparing cellulose paints which have been standing for some time. I won't go into the technicalities of colloidal and non-colloidal dispersion but the bottom line is I found it very easy to mix paints where at the point of application the white and/or blue predominated over the yellow ochre and thus subdued the "green". This especially occurred where the "trace of Prussian blue" was over generous as it is a virulent pigment that can quickly dominate the white. Whether similar issues only occurred during unit re-paints or during factory painting as well (and presumably passed by inspectors) I could not say but the original Titanine formula for Sky, which was the formula used during 1940, was imprecise when it came to the yellow ochre and Prussian blue components. The only way that it could be "standardised" was matching to a swatch and the acceptance of variance between batches must have been inevitable. This opens the possibility that the sky blue supposedly seen on fighters at that time was a variance of Sky rather than Sky Blue per se, although no doubt perception comes into it too.

If both of these aspects are applied in the case of 1940 Spitfires and Hurricanes then in terms of colour the Sky would literally be the limit.

[pigsty]

A little thing has been nagging away at me. The Royal Dutch Navy used to use what appears very much to be the late-war Extra Dark Sea Grey and Sky colour scheme with the low demarcation line - eg on Orions and Lynxes. Would that have meant that someone, somewhere, was keeping Sky in production, albeit in relatively small quantities?

[Nick Millman]

Well Sky continues to exist as a colour standard within BSi 381C. It is No. 210 and is quite close in appearance to the wartime colour. So presumably it can still be found or specified in paint ranges, especially if the Royal Dutch Navy found that scheme efficacious for their purposes.

[Andrew Jones]

A little thing has been nagging away at me. The Royal Dutch Navy used to use what appears very much to be the late-war Extra Dark Sea Grey and Sky colour scheme with the low demarcation line - eg on Orions and Lynxes. Would that have meant that someone, somewhere, was keeping Sky in production, albeit in relatively small quantities?

It was also used on RN Gannets right up until their withdrawal from service, If a colour standard exists it would be perfectly possible for a batch of paint ,large or small, to be mixed to that standard when nessecary.

Andrew

[Selwyn]

Well are we painting aeroplanes or houses in WWII? Surely a main contractor to the Air Ministry/MAP will paint as the works drawing specifies using the stores reference specified and a sub contractor to the main contractor will do like wise, sourcing their own paint possibly. AID inspectors will then use their MAP colour chips to ensure that the specification and colour are correct to drawing. ..and if not, reject or issue a deviation.

Well yes! Bs 381 c was and still is not just colours for aeroplanes.

Perhaps not houses, but certainly London Transport Buses, GPO vehicles, road signs, telephone boxes post boxes etc etc, all used the standard. If it was UK government owned it was probably painted to BS 381c. That was one of the reasons the standard was introduced.

Selwyn

[John]

When I worked for ICI at the Grangemouth colours factory in the early 1980s, the top halves of the corridor walls and ceilings were painted Sky!

John

[Mark12]

Well yes! Bs 381 c was and still is not just colours for aeroplanes.

Perhaps not houses, but certainly London Transport Buses, GPO vehicles, road signs, telephone boxes post boxes etc etc, all used the standard. If it was UK government owned it was probably painted to BS 381c. That was one of the reasons the standard was introduced.

Selwyn

DTD. Directorate of Technical Develoment. Re Spitfire specified paints. The colour is the colour but the specification, testing and quality control his whole different issue.

History of DGAQA

The increasing significance of the role of air power in warfare underscores the need to acquire might in air. This calls for military aircraft and all other associated equipment to be of high quality, reliability and state-of- the- art technology. The complexity of technology and the critical role of airborne equipment make Quality Assurance (QA) very significant.

The Directorate General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance (DGAQA) was established in 1954 under the auspices of Department of Defence Production and Supplies, Ministry of Defence (M.O.D) as Directorate of Technical Development and Production (Air) [DTD&P (Air)], under Defence Science Services (DSS). In 1979, DSS was trifurcated into Defence Research & Development Service (DRDS), Defence Quality Assurance Service (DQAS) and Defence Aeronautical Quality Assurance Service (DAQAS). R&D Establishments and Certification Functions were transferred to Defence research & Development Organisation (DRDO), Quality Assurance and related responsibilities in respect of Defence Aeronautical Stores were vested with DTD&P(Air). DTD&P(Air) was subsequently rechristened as DGAQA in 1996. DAQAS is an Organised Group A Scientific Service.

The role envisaged for the organisation initially included development activities, inspection in the field of military aircraft, airborne systems and other aeronautical stores and their certification. It included R & D organizations like Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE). In the subsequent organizational changes, it continued as a QA organisation for Military Aviation with additional duties such as vendor development and related activities. Over the years, the organisation has acquired necessary strength and has grown into an active QA regulatory authority, in line with counterparts world-wide, in the field of military aircraft related stores for the services and para-military agencies within the country.

[Smithy]

BSI 381C (1931) No.1 Sky Blue was not a paint as such but a colour standard for ready-mixed paint for general purposes. That it was supposedly used due to shortages of Sky paint is based on the fact that extant paint samples from Hurricane aircraft appear to match it. Unfortunately for this hypothesis standard RAF stores paints of white, blue and yellow when mixed together in various proportions also result in colours that match this standard (and No.16 Eau de Nil). So without additional evidence it is an inconclusive hypothesis.

Hi Nick,

I have heard this hypothesis on other forums and I would be inclined to agree with it if it wasn't for Lucas' research which found near perfect matches for No. 1 Sky Blue on pieces from different airframes. What further compunds this for me, is that he found near perfect matches for No.16 Eau de Nil on pieces from different airframes as well. Laws of coincidence seem to lead some credence to the possibility of these colours being used, rather than just the fact that on-squadron mixes coincidentally matched these colours in several different circumstances. And I've yet to see it 100% conclusively proven that No. 1 Sky Blue and No.16 Eau de Nil were not available to squadrons and MUs in DTD 63A and DTD 260A standards.

Another point which I think is pertinent to the discussion and which I have never seen discussed is the level of operations that 11 Group (and to a slightly lesser degree, 10 Group) were involved in at this time. When the AM issued the directive for Sky undersurfaces on the 6th June, immediately after the Dunkirk evacuation, Fighter Command in the south of England were mounting a large amount of sorties, standing patrols over the Channel, convoy escort, etc to the point that they were at a level of sorties not much less than during the Battle of Britain proper. Ground crews in these units would have been exceptionally busy with the main priority of maintaining unit operational strength. Which leads to the question if No. 1 Sky Blue and No.16 Eau de Nil were possibly available to them then it would make some sense that they may very well use them, especially when given that the AM had described the new colour to be applied was "duck egg bluish green". Operational units will use the easiest option open to them, especially under situations where the focus is battle and frontline readiness. Far easier to use an existing colour which might be available to stores than faff around mixing something up when you are already preoccupied with engine maintenance, repairing battle damage, etc.

This is just my personal opinion and I certainly don't believe that Lucas has it 100% correct. But I think he presents a plausible and valid hypothesis based on existing contemporary documents and archaeological evidence. At the end of the day this is one of these arguments and discussions that ultimately ends up chasing its own tail - fun for a time but ultimately exhausting and inconclusive.

Cheers,

Tim

Edited September 14, 2012 by Smithy