Jump to content

Help with spitfire sky needed


Mottlemaster

Recommended Posts

I have just recieved a set of Montex super masks for the Hobby Boss Spitfire mk Vb to do the aircraft flown by F/Lt Eric S Lock ,611 Squadron , July 1941

The paint chart calls for the undeer surface to be painted Sky.

The Hobby boss painting guide calls for the green / brown Spit to have a Sky Blue undersurface so i purchased a tin of White Ensign Sky Blue BS1 ennamel.

This, when it arrived was not quite whaat i was expecting . P1130071.jpg

I think i was expecting something a little less blue and alittle bit more greenish

When the masks arrived the following day the colours seem to closely match the tin lid.

P1130072.jpg

After a bit of googling i understand that there is a colour Sky type s which is more of a pale greeny blue and it is likely that the spinner and fuselarge band may be in this lighter colour with the undersurface sky blue

I notice that John Wilkes has usedGunze sangyo H74 sky for his build in model Airplane international (Dec 2011)

P1130074.jpg

Please any ideas anyone

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure if this will help but Humbrol enamel number 90 is the colour I use for all my Spitfires.

Thanks Teenmodeller I have seen a tin of the Humbrol 90 as being a match for the sky type s . It seems that around the july 41 time other colours were used but this may be all my confusion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have just recieved a set of Montex super masks for the Hobby Boss Spitfire mk Vb to do the aircraft flown by F/Lt Eric S Lock ,611 Squadron , July 1941

The paint chart calls for the undeer surface to be painted Sky.

After a bit of googling i understand that there is a colour Sky type s which is more of a pale greeny blue and it is likely that the spinner and fuselarge band may be in this lighter colour with the undersurface sky blue

Please any ideas anyone

I would go with Sky type S for the under surfaces as well as the spinner and fuselage stripe. While there may have been some non-standard light blues used in the Battle of Britain period, by 1941 straight-up Sky is, I think, much more likely; and yes, it is a greenish-bluish-yellowish color.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sky became the under surface color in June 1940. Initially there was a shortage, especially at the unit level to repaint undersides and and various 'close' approximations of Sky were seen (I am leaving out a lot here) and this is where some of the potential confusion with Sky, Duck Egg Blue (or Green) and Sky Blue originates. By July 1941 Sky was the standard color used on the undersides, spinner and fuselage band.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Haveing been a Luftwaffe modeler for past 15 years and this being only my second RAF aircraft in that time (first one a lanc with black lower) i am flabbergarsted to realise what a can of worms RAF colours are. I now realise i may need more than brown,green,black and sky in the paint collection :)

I have just purchased a tin of the Humbrol 90 from

http://www.modelrailwayloft.co.uk/humbrol for £1.40 inc p&p ...how do you make a proffit on that when you take into account admin , stamps and packageing materials ?

Thanks for all off your help . It provided me with the answer i wanted to here as useing the w/ensighn sky blue would have looked ORRID.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Haveing been a Luftwaffe modeler for past 15 years and this being only my second RAF aircraft in that time (first one a lanc with black lower) i am flabbergarsted to realise what a can of worms RAF colours are. I now realise i may need more than brown,green,black and sky in the paint collection :)

Not really. Luftwaffe colours are a can of worms, especially the late war stuff.

Mostly the RAF are pretty dull!

Very few odd field applied schemes [except Malta], mostly a standard set of colours, rules usually followed.

There are lots of changes in the 39-40 era which can confuse the casual dabbler though.

I really really suggest googling 'Ducimus Camouflage and Markings RAF pdf' as this will get you downloads of a series of 12 monographs on RAF fighter camo in NW Europe.

These have unfortunately been out of print for 35 or 40 years, so the only people who don't make money off these are used book sellers, but are still your best primer on the subject. Just a shame they didn't do middle east/far east or bombers, or coastal command.

Ducimus also did 10 on USAAF subjects, which are also excellent and well worth the bother of downloading.

For RAF colours Xtracolour or Xtracrylix are highly regarded as good matches apart from their azure blue.

Bear in mind you are a member of what has got to be one of the best modelling forums on the web, probaly the best for British subjects, with some serious experts posting.

My final bit, the site search facilty is not always helpful, often more relevant results can be obtained by using google and adding in Britmodeller to your search term.

HTH

T

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really really suggest googling 'Ducimus Camouflage and Markings RAF pdf' as this will get you downloads of a series of 12 monographs on RAF fighter camo in NW Europe.

My final bit, the site search facilty is not always helpful, often more relevant results can be obtained by using google and adding in Britmodeller to your search term.

HTH

T

Both excellent points! Not that my agreement carries much weight, but I do agree completely.

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Casual dabbler, ain't that the truth (I was one). Seriously though, compared to the many multitudes of German camo, RAF by comparison is a bit easier. There just happens to be a steep learning curve at the beginning until you start "thinking British" as it were.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Sky Blue" is BSS 381 (1930) No.1 Sky Blue, a colour which is believed by some experts to have been commonly used in place of Sky mid1940 before stocks of Sky became widely available.

By mid 1941 I would be very surprised if Lock's mount was sporting Sky Blue. Paul Lucas (arguably the foremost expert on RAF camouflage colours) has said that Sky was in widespread use by September 1940.

If it was me, I'd be painting the underside Sky.

Now the real question is the spinner and fuselage band - Sky, "Air Ministry Sky Blue", or even white? ;)

Cheers!

Tim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Both excellent points! Not that my agreement carries much weight, but I do agree completely.

John

I have had great use of

Paul Lucas, The Battle of Britain—RAF: May to December 1940. Scale Aircraft Monographs, Camouflage & Markings, No. 2. Guideline Publications, N.D. [2000]
Link to comment
Share on other sites

BSI 381C (1931) No.1 Sky Blue was not a paint as such but a colour standard for ready-mixed paint for general purposes. That it was supposedly used due to shortages of Sky paint is based on the fact that extant paint samples from Hurricane aircraft appear to match it. Unfortunately for this hypothesis standard RAF stores paints of white, blue and yellow when mixed together in various proportions also result in colours that match this standard (and No.16 Eau de Nil). So without additional evidence it is an inconclusive hypothesis.

Sky paint was reportedly in short supply. Why it should have been easier to procure aircraft paint to a standard that was not even in use by the Air Ministry rather than to mix existing stores paints is a question that has not been answered and there is no actual evidence for it beyond the matching of colour. There is also a real issue over the characteristics and purposes of the types of paints that were available commercially at the time that I won't go into here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BSI 381C (1931) No.1 Sky Blue was not a paint as such but a colour standard for ready-mixed paint for general purposes.

If so, it begs the question was was Sky Blue listed and sampled in the official WWII Ministry of Aircraft Production book.

MAPcolourchips001.jpg

Edited by Mark12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And seeing as no-one has mentioned it, the WEM clour you should have got was "Sky S Type", AC RN 01

Can't vouch for it's colour accuracy though.

HTH

Andy

Would that be Type S for Synthetic as opposed equally to Type C for Cellulose? The paint spec and type had to be stencilled on Spitfires to insure repair work paint was not rejected by the base coat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hang on ... Deep Sky? What was that?

Don't worry about Deep Sky, that was a dark blue colour , and as far as has been proved was only carried by high altitude Mosquito XV fighters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really? But aren't these the colours that they actually painted the aircraft of WWII?

It has been suggested that BS381 Sky Blue was used on some RAF aircraft in the Summer of 1940. As Nick has pointed out, there are other explanations for a colour similar to this appearing on some artifacts.

Air Ministry Sky Blue was developed pre-War for use on target drones but was replaced by Sky when that became the standard undersurface colour for fighters. AM Sky Blue is an extremely pale blue grey. There is no documentary evidence that AM Sky Blue was ever used for any other application.

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would that be Type S for Synthetic as opposed equally to Type C for Cellulose? The paint spec and type had to be stencilled on Spitfires to insure repair work paint was not rejected by the base coat.

Type S was for "smooth" as opposed to some of the "rough" finishes associated with ultra-matt paints.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not really. Luftwaffe colours are a can of worms, especially the late war stuff.

Mostly the RAF are pretty dull!

Very few odd field applied schemes [except Malta], mostly a standard set of colours, rules usually followed.

There are lots of changes in the 39-40 era which can confuse the casual dabbler though.

I completely agree with Troy ! There are a number of subjects that indeed are a can of worms, but these are after all limited in numbers and are most often the same (PR aircrafts, Malta, some other cases in the Med and SEAC, certain periods of transition into new schemes).

We modellers seem to be attracted to all these oddities and these are discussed at length, but we should not forget that these cases involve only relatively few aircrafts while the vast majority of the tens of thousands of aircrafts in RAF service during the war wore standard schemes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Type S, Type C.

This is the corner panel of the Vickers works paint drawing for the Mk 22 Spitfire.

By the time this blue print was made the drawing had been modified/updated to specify the post WWII all over silver finish.

Note both Synthetic and Cellulose paint combinations are specified.

IMG_2177.jpg

Edited by Mark12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...