Stonar Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 A nice PCM Spitfire XIV kit has fallen into my hands and I quite fancied doing S/L H.D. Johnson's V-1 killer "Brunhilde". This is one of the kit options which saves me a bob or two. I've even found a picture of RB188 coded DL*K amongst my meagre RAF references. Then I found a claim that Johnson's aircraft was infact an "e" winged machine,RM687,presumably with different codes. See here http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thre...k%20XIV%20RB188. So the question is,who is correct,the relatively numerous profile artists,published over the years,or the fellow who posted in that thread? Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I'd be inclined to believe Dan, though I don't instantly have any extra evidence to contribute. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonar Posted May 18, 2012 Author Share Posted May 18, 2012 (edited) I'd be inclined to believe Dan, though I don't instantly have any extra evidence to contribute.bob Thanks for that. That was my initial reaction too. We've all seen how an erroneous or even fanciful profile can propagate itself over the years,gaining credibility with repetition. It seems that "Brunhilde" was indeed a Mark XIVe,RM687,coded DL-K. Looks like I'm looking for a different subject! Steve Edited May 18, 2012 by Stonar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 RB188 was delivered in early 1944, before the "E" wing mods took hold, then went to AST for "GEM" mods; we believe that these were engine tweaks, but haven't found solid evidence. The question has to be, did it return to 91 Squadron, afterwards, and/or did the Squadron allow its codes to remain fallow, while it was away? The ORB is, possibly, the only way to find out. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonar Posted May 18, 2012 Author Share Posted May 18, 2012 Thank you Edgar. I should stick to the Luftwaffe......it's easier. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 (edited) RB188 was delivered in early 1944, before the "E" wing mods took hold.... The question has to be, did it return to 91 Squadron, afterwards, and/or did the Squadron allow its codes to remain fallow, while it was away? They got a new batch of XIVe fm 14 July including RM687 [new batch confirmed by Dan Johnson, fm pilot logbook]; prior group to store (?), most to 130 Sqn 29 Aug. Now, these dates may disagree somewhat from the ORBs, but they're usually within a few days, perhaps when the diarist got around to updating the book. RB188: 91S 29-2-44 AST 'Gem' mods 5-5-44 130S 29-8-44 I don't know why RB188 can't also have been flown by Johnson, but apparently the one named Brunhilde was the second airplane. bob Edited May 18, 2012 by gingerbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John M Posted May 19, 2012 Share Posted May 19, 2012 (edited) Through time I've seen many photos taken by former 402 Sqn pilots showing 'Brunhilde'on the nose of a Spitfire XIV. However, I have not seen any photos showing the entire a/c showing both the nose art and serial/codes. I agree with Dan Johnson that RM687 was Brunhilde. 402 Sqn and 91 Sqn did an a/c swap on 09 Aug 44....with 91 Sqn receiving 402 Sqns Mk IXs. RM687 went on to fly with 402 Sqn as AE*D. While landing from a mission on 25 Oct 44 at Diest, F/O E.A. Kerr got stuck in the mud while turning off the strip. The a/c following, RM684 AE*K flown by F/O K.A. Heggie could not stop in time and crashed into the stuck aircraft. Both a/c Cat.E - pilots uninjured. So ends "Brunhilde". RM687: STN 39MU 18-6-44 91S 14-7 402S CE ops 25-10 SOC 5-4-45 John Edited May 19, 2012 by John M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Today, I checked the ORB, for 91 Squadron, and am beginning to wish that I hadn't; remember, in what follows, that this is taken from the book, so I'd appreciate no abuse being hurled my way. 1/. H.D. Johnson was not a Squadron Leader, he was a Flight/L, at least until the end of the war. 2/. He did, occasionally, fly RB188, along with a dozen, or more, other pilots, but RB188 seems to have disappeared around July 19th. 3/. Johnson never flew RM687, in fact it flew very seldom, and seems to have been the mount of S/L Kynaston and/or S/L Bond. 4/. As well as RB188, Johnson flew 17 other XIVs, but the aircraft that carried him most often was RM684 (21 times.) 5/. Use of the XIV ended on August 11th., when 91 transferred to Spitfire IXs, with XXIs just before the end of the war. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonar Posted May 27, 2012 Author Share Posted May 27, 2012 Heavens above! The plot certainly thickens! Thank you very much for that information Edgar,and the time it took to dig it up. I suppose that puts a cat amongst the pigeons. I'm nearing the point when I'll start on painting my model but at least enamels (I'm a bit old fashioned) take a while to dry,giving me time to ponder what exactly I'm going to do I'm hoping there were more than one "Brunhilde" and that RB188 might have been one of them. Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 I offer this additional evidence: Link RM684 does not show 91 Sqn in her individual history, which begins with 402 in August. But it seems safe to conclude that something's missing from her record! Looking at the scribbling on the spinner, perhaps that last digit is a 4, not a 7? Or perhaps he just thought Brunhilde was cool, so he stood in front of it for the picture? Good work, Edgar! bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 I'm not sure if this helps or not, but I recently picked up a set of Tallyho decals for the Spitfire XIV which has Brunhilde as DL-K RB188 & shows it as a XIVc. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve in Ottawa Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 (edited) John M said: Through time I've seen many photos taken by former 402 Sqn pilots showing 'Brunhilde'on the nose of a Spitfire XIV. However, I have not seen any photos showing the entire a/c showing both the nose art and serial/codes. I agree with Dan Johnson that RM687 was Brunhilde. 402 Sqn and 91 Sqn did an a/c swap on 09 Aug 44....with 91 Sqn receiving 402 Sqns Mk IXs. RM687 went on to fly with 402 Sqn as AE*D. While landing from a mission on 25 Oct 44 at Diest, F/O E.A. Kerr got stuck in the mud while turning off the strip. The a/c following, RM684 AE*K flown by F/O K.A. Heggie could not stop in time and crashed into the stuck aircraft. Both a/c Cat.E - pilots uninjured. So ends "Brunhilde". RM687: STN 39MU 18-6-44 91S 14-7 402S CE ops 25-10 SOC 5-4-45 John Hi John, If you've ID'd RM684 as AE*K, do you have any idea if it's the same aircraft as this one? Current link (Feb 2017) Â I'm guessing 'probably not' since it looks like it was written off in Oct '44, before the Sky spinners and tailbands were removed. I've been wanting to figure out the serial on this one for a long time. With the white rudder and spinner, this AE*K sure stands out amongst the 2 TAF schemes based on the continent. Edited March 1, 2017 by Steve in Ottawa updated link to IPMS Canada website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John M Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 [if you've ID'd RM684 as AE*K, do you have any idea if it's the same aircraft as this one? http://www.ipmscanada.com/Reference_Photo/...fire%20XIV.html Hi Steve, The idenitity for this one is correct........ AE*K with the 'White' rudder was S/L 'Chunky' D.C. Gordon's aircraft....... MV256. This a/c was a F.XIV (not a FR.XIV) which had the bubble canopy and full span wing and no fuselage tank. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve in Ottawa Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 [if you've ID'd RM684 as AE*K, do you have any idea if it's the same aircraft as this one? <a href="http://www.ipmscanada.com/Reference_Photo/...fire%20XIV.html" target="_blank">http://www.ipmscanada.com/Reference_Photo/...fire%20XIV.html</a> Hi Steve, The idenitity for this one is correct........ AE*K with the 'White' rudder was S/L 'Chunky' D.C. Gordon's aircraft....... MV256. This a/c was a F.XIV (not a FR.XIV) which had the bubble canopy and full span wing and no fuselage tank. John That's great news, and it confirms what I'd always thought about the photo. With AE*K parked in the 'good spot' beside the W/C's aircraft, and carrying very unusual colour scheme features, I'd always figured that it was a CO's, or at least a Flt comd's aircraft. Thanks John! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 On 19/05/2012 at 6:38 PM, John M said: RM687 went on to fly with 402 Sqn as AE*D. While landing from a mission on 25 Oct 44 at Diest, F/O E.A. Kerr got stuck in the mud while turning off the strip. The a/c following, RM684 AE*K flown by F/O K.A. Heggie could not stop in time and crashed into the stuck aircraft. Both a/c Cat.E - pilots uninjured. RM687: STN 39MU 18-6-44 91S 14-7 402S CE ops 25-10 SOC 5-4-45 John  Oh dear, a further complication!  Air Britain says, for RM687: Hit by RM682 after bogging down Grave 25.10.44  and the individual histories (not from Air Britain): RM684: 39MU 30-6-44 402S CB ops 5-10 419RSU recat E SOC 28-4-45 RM682: 39MU 14-6-44 91S 14-7 402S CB ops 25-10 409RSU 2-11 ASTH 26-4-45 sold VA 10-5-50  So, not Cat.E, and while a '2' might easily have gone missing from the date for RM684's incident, it begs the question of whether RM684 or 682 was AEoK. Alas, John hasn't checked in for a year, but I'll send him a PM just in case he can answer that question.  bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John M Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Air Britain is correct. RM682 (AE*K)Â ran into RM687. The ORB listed RM684 which was wrong. Â John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles81 Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Is there any indication that RM682 was previously DL K with 91 Sqn before being moved to 402 Sqn? Ie did it retain the same individual letter? I am curious as it seems to complicate identification of 91 Sqn's Brunehilde as either RM687 or RM684 or even RM682 itself, particularly given Egdar's analysis of the 91 Sqn ORB from 2012 in this thread, which would point to RM684 (assuming Brunehilde was his aircraft which he states it was) even though Johnson himself has stated it was RM687.  This is fascinating I must say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncarina Posted October 6, 2023 Share Posted October 6, 2023 On 5/27/2012 at 8:26 AM, John M said: [if you've ID'd RM684 as AE*K, do you have any idea if it's the same aircraft as this one?  http://www.ipmscanada.com/Reference_Photo/...fire%20XIV.html Hi Steve, The idenitity for this one is correct........ AE*K with the 'White' rudder was S/L 'Chunky' D.C. Gordon's aircraft....... MV256. This a/c was a F.XIV (not a FR.XIV) which had the bubble canopy and full span wing and no fuselage tank. John John, I’m resurrecting this as I’m interested in building this aircraft (MV256) in 1/32 scale.  The IPMS link no longer works. Would you happen to have a photo available that confirms the white spinner and rudder?  Sincerely,  Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholas mayhew Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 Just giving this another bump as Zotz have (re-?)released some XIV decals in 1/32 which i think has been prompted by Laminar Flow Design's excellent 3DP conversion for the Tamiya VIII or IX...  unfortunately Zotz still seem to be propagating the Brunhilde as RB188 without any (new) pictures to back it up - it sells decal sheets i guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 It's not actually disproven, really just a matter of how individuals assess the balance of probabilities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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