oldgit Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Chaps, Has anyone out there attempted to convert a 1-72nd Avro 504K into a 1914 period 504A, as used on the November 1914 Friedrichshafen raid? Was there a great deal of difference between the 504A & 504K? The only visual difference seems to be the engine & cowling, but please correct me if I've missed something. I would appreciate your opinions on how to best create the semi-enclosed engine cowling of this particular aircraft. Once again, my thanks everyone. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehed Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Hi Tim, The Airfix 504K fuselage is a scale foot short. I found it best to add the increased length just in front of the rear elevators. The rear fuselage now needs to be deepened and a length of 30thou card running from the lower wing cut out to the tail should suffice. In my case I filed the plastic adjoining the cut out so that the "new" fuselage was not proud of the wing. That's as far as I went with my 504K but I've been thinking about a 1915 RNAS 504 with a Gnome cowling. What appeared feasible was to flatten the fuselage sides behind the cowling so that there is a distinct step. It's then a re-shaping exercise with the file for the Airfix cowling and the side extensions could be made from card or something from the spares box. Not forgetting to partially enclose the front of the cowling with card. One last thought. The rudder will have to be made deeper to match the new fuselage or scratch a new one. Hope this is of use. Regards, Steve 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldgit Posted May 16, 2012 Author Share Posted May 16, 2012 Hi Tim, The Airfix 504K fuselage is a scale foot short. I found it best to add the increased length just in front of the rear elevators. The rear fuselage now needs to be deepened and a length of 30thou card running from the lower wing cut out to the tail should suffice. In my case I filed the plastic adjoining the cut out so that the "new" fuselage was not proud of the wing. That's as far as I went with my 504K but I've been thinking about a 1915 RNAS 504 with a Gnome cowling. What appeared feasible was to flatten the fuselage sides behind the cowling so that there is a distinct step. It's then a re-shaping exercise with the file for the Airfix cowling and the side extensions could be made from card or something from the spares box. Not forgetting to partially enclose the front of the cowling with card. One last thought. The rudder will have to be made deeper to match the new fuselage or scratch a new one. Hope this is of use. Regards, Steve Thankyou Steve. All good advice, and thanks for the ongoing conversion projects here on the forum. Do you have some of the 70's and 80's era Airfix Magazine articles covering WW1 aircraft conversions? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) Ray Rimell converted one in Scale Models years ago I'm sure (Part of the 'British Bombers collection, early 80s). The cockpit locations in the Airfix kit are in the wrong place too, but you'd be correcting that in a 504A anyway! Even if you ignore the fuselage length issue, the fuselage needs fattening up anyway. Edited May 16, 2012 by Dave Fleming 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehed Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Hi Tim, Regarding conversion articles I haven't got a lot but I've had a look and found the following. Airfix Gladiator > Bristol M1 monoplane Airfix Avro 504 / RE8 > Sopwith 1/12 Strutter Airfix 504 > Sopwith Baby Airfix 504 > Bristol Scout I've also got a Scale Models scratch build of a Rumpler CIV that uses the Airfix Hannover, another that has the plans for a DFW CV and the Camel conversion to a DH5. I think you would get a better response if you asked the question on the Airfix Tribute Forum. PM me if any interest you. Regards, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevef Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Chaps,Has anyone out there attempted to convert a 1-72nd Avro 504K into a 1914 period 504A, as used on the November 1914 Friedrichshafen raid? Was there a great deal of difference between the 504A & 504K? The only visual difference seems to be the engine & cowling, but please correct me if I've missed something. I would appreciate your opinions on how to best create the semi-enclosed engine cowling of this particular aircraft. Once again, my thanks everyone. Tim Dear Tim I have not actually attempted the conversion although I have thought about it often. There is a short article and good line drawing with colour scheme in Airfix Magazine Feb 1969 by P. Leaman. The front cockpits were covered over with canvas and the bomb racks were field improvisations. The fuselage is the biggest problem plus the engine and cowling, partly because the Airfix kit fuselage is wrong. Folow Stevehed's advice but also try to get a decent plan if you can. Aeromodeller used to produce them and they were still for sale in the '80's but I cannot find a modern source yet. I think that I have one somewhere...... Stevef 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldgit Posted May 17, 2012 Author Share Posted May 17, 2012 Dear TimI have not actually attempted the conversion although I have thought about it often. There is a short article and good line drawing with colour scheme in Airfix Magazine Feb 1969 by P. Leaman. The front cockpits were covered over with canvas and the bomb racks were field improvisations. The fuselage is the biggest problem plus the engine and cowling, partly because the Airfix kit fuselage is wrong. Folow Stevehed's advice but also try to get a decent plan if you can. Aeromodeller used to produce them and they were still for sale in the '80's but I cannot find a modern source yet. I think that I have one somewhere...... Stevef Thanks guys, for the advice & offer of assistance. As you say Steve, the problem is finding accurate reference for the early 504 and photos are not exactly plentiful either. If anyone has the P. Leaman article mentioned above, please could I have a copy? I'm puzzled also about the cockpit positions. Are they wrong on the Airfix 504K? Were they different on the 504A? I knew about the fuselage length issues of the kit but not the cockpits. What do I need to do to rectify them? Thanks again chaps, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 Is the Amodel kit correct or does it have the same faults as the Airfix? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 Is the Amodel kit correct or does it have the same faults as the Airfix? It's virtually a slightly cruder copy of the Airfix kit unfortunately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehed Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 There is always the resin route. HR Models do the 504A,B,C,D etc but there nearly all in the region of £20 plus p+p. Can't comment on accuracy or how well they go together but I do know that Hannants stock them. Regards, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killingholme Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 There is always the resin route. HR Models do the 504A,B,C,D etc but there nearly all in the region of £20 plus p+p. Can't comment on accuracy or how well they go together but I do know that Hannants stock them.Regards, Steve I would be careful with HR. I haven't seen the Avro 504s, but I was in possession of a couple of their kits which were clearly based on existing injected moulded kits. They were nicely done re-workings, but some of the errors of the prototype kit had been transferred. With such a simple fix/ conversion for the 504, I wonder whether resin would be best rout to follow. Never thought I'd catch you advocating actually buying a kit of an aircraft Steve! Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I've got the HR Cierva C6D and the fuselage is a copy of the Airfix 504. http://hyperscale.com/features/2002/c8rmg_1.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarLos Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Another difference I spotted in the Putnam book is the much larger ailerons - 4 more ribs than in the K. (That from the scale drawings in the book; However, "British Aeroplanes 1914-18" by Jack Bruce has a photo of an A with the shorter span ailerons of the K) Details of the cowling from Flight magazine: http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/vie...20-%200826.html Carlos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehed Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Just musing Will, letting myself wander into those dark recesses of the mind that are rarely visited. Myself, I'd go the Airfix route. In fact, there's a nice photo of an RNAS 504 in the Osprey title that looks very worthy of consideration as a future project. Regards, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 It's about time Albatros did an early Avro 504 versions data file, rather than yet another Albatros version!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevef Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 (edited) Thanks guys, for the advice & offer of assistance. As you say Steve, the problem is finding accurate reference for the early 504 and photos are not exactly plentiful either. If anyone has the P. Leaman article mentioned above, please could I have a copy?I'm puzzled also about the cockpit positions. Are they wrong on the Airfix 504K? Were they different on the 504A? I knew about the fuselage length issues of the kit but not the cockpits. What do I need to do to rectify them? Thanks again chaps, Tim Dear Tim, With ref to the P Leaman article I have a copy. With ref to the conversions in Airfix magazine I can recall from memory the following: D H 4 to: D H 4a, D H 9 and D H 9a (you will need an old Frog Wallace for the wings for the D H 9a) Avro 504 to: 504A 504J 504N and possibly some other variants Sopwith Baby from a 504 Sopwith Pup Sopwith Camel F2A Fokker DVI from a triplane and DVII Fokker E VIII Hanriot Scout Sopwith 1:1/2 Strutter Cierva autogyro F E 8 and for the moment that is as far as my memory goes. However if you can be patient and give me a couple of days I will go into the attic and have a proper look for you and update this list as necessary. If you want copies of any or all of these articles send me an SAE and I will be happy to send them. I also have a copy of a Vimy article but that may be appearing in Internet Modeller shortly but without the drawings. I now realise that this should be on another thread but I hope others and you will find it. If you want the whole thing let me know. Stevef Edited May 22, 2012 by stevef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 Did anyone completed a conversion to 1914 spec as described above? I've tried searching the forum but could only find this thread as I'm (slowly) planning a build of 874 from the Friedrichshafen Raid. However I am a novice at aircraft builds (usually a car modeller) & so any advice woud be very appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWFK10 Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 It's worth mentioning (if you weren't already aware) that the Datafile on early Avro 504s hoped for by Dave Fleming has since come out and would be useful for your project: https://www.windsockdatafilespecials.co.uk/156early-avro-504-biplanes-689-p.asp 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Thank you, yes already have that which is very useful to show the differences at 1:1 compared to a K. Interestingly, the tail numbers for the Friedrichshafen Raid have been mixed up for decades, and I think it's one of the first books that corrects this (I have also verified from period photos). Has anyone documented more on the corrections needed to the fuselage? Whilst I have a few planes now in the to-build pile, only one has been started (& not finished yet...) so I am still very much a novice with aviation models & any further guidance to the very useful info posted above by stevehed, or any other issues to watch for on the Airfix kit would be very appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Your best bet is to try and get hold of a copy of the Ray Rimell article in Scale Models (the same Ray Rimell who runs the Windsock operation) that Dave has already mentioned. ISTR that he used spliced together 2 Avro 504 fuselages to arrive at a decent Avro 504K. Expensive perhaps but no more so than going down the small producer route which, to judge from the above, will yield an inferior product with the same issues anyway. Afraid I can't recall which Scale Models it was in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Found it & ordered one online - it's the May 1975 issue. Many thanks for the tip! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Puff Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Slightly OT, but this is yet another reason for WNW to put out a 504 kit ... or to talk Copper State into doing one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 2 hours ago, Admiral Puff said: Slightly OT, but this is yet another reason for WNW to put out a 504 kit ... or to talk Copper State into doing one! I did email WNW a while back to suggest that an early 504 would fit nicely in their range, especially with its pedigree as being used for the first strategic bombing raid (also the first Allied crossing of the Rhine in the Great War) but only recieved a relatively generic email back so guess they are either not interested or playing their cards close to their chest. I am hoping that it is simply the latter. As they seem to like releases that tie-in with decorated airmen, the 504 fits that well since Squadron Commander E. F. Briggs received the DSO & Bar, Croix de Guerre avec Palme and the Legion d' Honneur for his exploits firstly in leading the raid, and also then later escaping from German captivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Puff Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Yes, WNW tends to play its cards close to its chest on new releases. I know that their reps got a fair hammering on the subject of 504 kits at Chattanooga, without any real evidence of interest/commitment. We've just got to persevere ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehed Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 Just seen this re-opening of an old thread. Mainly in reply to Paul H but I did convert the Airfix 504K to an early 504B. Very similar to the A I believe. There are no WIP photos I'm afraid but a description of the work methods. Didn't alter the cockpits which are within my tolerance levels but the fuselage mods are worthwhile and the re-modelled cowling is a must. Hope this is of interest. The thread contains several other uses for the 504 kit. https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/airfixtributeforum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=41111&p=780805&hilit=avro+504#p780805 Regards, Steve 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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