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Avro 504 bomber


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#1 oldgit

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 06:11 PM

Chaps,

Has anyone out there attempted to convert a 1-72nd Avro 504K into a 1914 period 504A, as used on the November 1914 Friedrichshafen raid?

Was there a great deal of difference between the 504A & 504K? The only visual difference seems to be the engine & cowling, but please correct me
if I've missed something.

I would appreciate your opinions on how to best create the semi-enclosed engine cowling of this particular aircraft.

Once again, my thanks everyone.

Tim

#2 stevehed

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 08:08 PM

Hi Tim,
The Airfix 504K fuselage is a scale foot short. I found it best to add the increased length just in front of the rear elevators. The rear fuselage now needs to be deepened and a length of 30thou card running from the lower wing cut out to the tail should suffice. In my case I filed the plastic adjoining the cut out so that the "new" fuselage was not proud of the wing. That's as far as I went with my 504K but I've been thinking about a 1915 RNAS 504 with a Gnome cowling. What appeared feasible was to flatten the fuselage sides behind the cowling so that there is a distinct step. It's then a re-shaping exercise with the file for the Airfix cowling and the side extensions could be made from card or something from the spares box. Not forgetting to partially enclose the front of the cowling with card. One last thought. The rudder will have to be made deeper to match the new fuselage or scratch a new one. Hope this is of use.

Regards, Steve

#3 oldgit

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:07 AM

Hi Tim,
The Airfix 504K fuselage is a scale foot short. I found it best to add the increased length just in front of the rear elevators. The rear fuselage now needs to be deepened and a length of 30thou card running from the lower wing cut out to the tail should suffice. In my case I filed the plastic adjoining the cut out so that the "new" fuselage was not proud of the wing. That's as far as I went with my 504K but I've been thinking about a 1915 RNAS 504 with a Gnome cowling. What appeared feasible was to flatten the fuselage sides behind the cowling so that there is a distinct step. It's then a re-shaping exercise with the file for the Airfix cowling and the side extensions could be made from card or something from the spares box. Not forgetting to partially enclose the front of the cowling with card. One last thought. The rudder will have to be made deeper to match the new fuselage or scratch a new one. Hope this is of use.

Regards, Steve



Thankyou Steve.

All good advice, and thanks for the ongoing conversion projects here on the forum.

Do you have some of the 70's and 80's era Airfix Magazine articles covering WW1 aircraft conversions?

Tim

#4 Dave Fleming

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:57 AM

Ray Rimell converted one in Scale Models years ago I'm sure (Part of the 'British Bombers collection, early 80s).

The cockpit locations in the Airfix kit are in the wrong place too, but you'd be correcting that in a 504A anyway!

Even if you ignore the fuselage length issue, the fuselage needs fattening up anyway.

Edited by Dave Fleming, 16 May 2012 - 11:58 AM.


#5 stevehed

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 07:16 PM

Hi Tim,
Regarding conversion articles I haven't got a lot but I've had a look and found the following.

Airfix Gladiator > Bristol M1 monoplane
Airfix Avro 504 / RE8 > Sopwith 1/12 Strutter
Airfix 504 > Sopwith Baby
Airfix 504 > Bristol Scout

I've also got a Scale Models scratch build of a Rumpler CIV that uses the Airfix Hannover, another that has the plans for
a DFW CV and the Camel conversion to a DH5.

I think you would get a better response if you asked the question on the Airfix Tribute Forum.

PM me if any interest you.

Regards, Steve

#6 stevef

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 07:45 PM

Chaps,

Has anyone out there attempted to convert a 1-72nd Avro 504K into a 1914 period 504A, as used on the November 1914 Friedrichshafen raid?

Was there a great deal of difference between the 504A & 504K? The only visual difference seems to be the engine & cowling, but please correct me
if I've missed something.

I would appreciate your opinions on how to best create the semi-enclosed engine cowling of this particular aircraft.

Once again, my thanks everyone.

Tim

Dear Tim
I have not actually attempted the conversion although I have thought about it often. There is a short article and good line drawing with colour scheme in Airfix Magazine Feb 1969 by P. Leaman. The front cockpits were covered over with canvas and the bomb racks were field improvisations. The fuselage is the biggest problem plus the engine and cowling, partly because the Airfix kit fuselage is wrong. Folow Stevehed's advice but also try to get a decent plan if you can. Aeromodeller used to produce them and they were still for sale in the '80's but I cannot find a modern source yet. I think that I have one somewhere......
Stevef

#7 oldgit

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 07:09 PM

Dear Tim
I have not actually attempted the conversion although I have thought about it often. There is a short article and good line drawing with colour scheme in Airfix Magazine Feb 1969 by P. Leaman. The front cockpits were covered over with canvas and the bomb racks were field improvisations. The fuselage is the biggest problem plus the engine and cowling, partly because the Airfix kit fuselage is wrong. Folow Stevehed's advice but also try to get a decent plan if you can. Aeromodeller used to produce them and they were still for sale in the '80's but I cannot find a modern source yet. I think that I have one somewhere......
Stevef



Thanks guys, for the advice & offer of assistance. As you say Steve, the problem is finding accurate reference for the early 504 and photos are not exactly plentiful either. If anyone has the P. Leaman article mentioned above, please could I have a copy?

I'm puzzled also about the cockpit positions. Are they wrong on the Airfix 504K? Were they different on the 504A? I knew about the fuselage length issues of the kit but not the cockpits.
What do I need to do to rectify them?

Thanks again chaps,

Tim

#8 Test Graham

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 07:11 PM

Is the Amodel kit correct or does it have the same faults as the Airfix?

#9 Dave Fleming

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 09:53 PM

Is the Amodel kit correct or does it have the same faults as the Airfix?



It's virtually a slightly cruder copy of the Airfix kit unfortunately

#10 stevehed

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 11:00 PM

There is always the resin route. HR Models do the 504A,B,C,D etc but there nearly all in the region of 20 plus p+p. Can't comment on accuracy or how well they go together but I do know that Hannants stock them.

Regards, Steve

#11 Killingholme

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 03:35 PM

There is always the resin route. HR Models do the 504A,B,C,D etc but there nearly all in the region of 20 plus p+p. Can't comment on accuracy or how well they go together but I do know that Hannants stock them.

Regards, Steve


I would be careful with HR. I haven't seen the Avro 504s, but I was in possession of a couple of their kits which were clearly based on existing injected moulded kits. They were nicely done re-workings, but some of the errors of the prototype kit had been transferred. With such a simple fix/ conversion for the 504, I wonder whether resin would be best rout to follow.

Never thought I'd catch you advocating actually buying a kit of an aircraft Steve!

Will

#12 Dave Fleming

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 04:41 PM

I've got the HR Cierva C6D and the fuselage is a copy of the Airfix 504.

http://hyperscale.co...002/c8rmg_1.htm

#13 CarLos

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 05:25 PM

Another difference I spotted in the Putnam book is the much larger ailerons - 4 more ribs than in the K. (That from the scale drawings in the book; However, "British Aeroplanes 1914-18" by Jack Bruce has a photo of an A with the shorter span ailerons of the K)

Details of the cowling from Flight magazine:

http://www.flightglo.....20- 0826.html


Carlos

#14 stevehed

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 05:53 PM

Just musing Will, letting myself wander into those dark recesses of the mind that are rarely visited. Myself, I'd go the Airfix route. In fact, there's a nice photo of an RNAS 504 in the Osprey title that looks very worthy of consideration as a future project.

Regards, Steve

#15 Dave Fleming

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 07:19 PM

It's about time Albatros did an early Avro 504 versions data file, rather than yet another Albatros version!!

#16 stevef

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 07:11 PM

Thanks guys, for the advice & offer of assistance. As you say Steve, the problem is finding accurate reference for the early 504 and photos are not exactly plentiful either. If anyone has the P. Leaman article mentioned above, please could I have a copy?

I'm puzzled also about the cockpit positions. Are they wrong on the Airfix 504K? Were they different on the 504A? I knew about the fuselage length issues of the kit but not the cockpits.
What do I need to do to rectify them?

Thanks again chaps,

Tim

Dear Tim,
With ref to the P Leaman article I have a copy. With ref to the conversions in Airfix magazine I can recall from memory the following:
D H 4 to: D H 4a, D H 9 and D H 9a (you will need an old Frog Wallace for the wings for the D H 9a)
Avro 504 to: 504A 504J 504N and possibly some other variants
Sopwith Baby from a 504
Sopwith Pup
Sopwith Camel F2A
Fokker DVI from a triplane and DVII
Fokker E VIII
Hanriot Scout
Sopwith 1:1/2 Strutter
Cierva autogyro
F E 8
and for the moment that is as far as my memory goes. However if you can be patient and give me a couple of days I will go into the attic and have a proper look for you and update this list as necessary. If you want copies of any or all of these articles send me an SAE and I will be happy to send them. I also have a copy of a Vimy article but that may be appearing in Internet Modeller shortly but without the drawings. I now realise that this should be on another thread but I hope others and you will find it. If you want the whole thing let me know.

Stevef

Edited by stevef, 22 May 2012 - 07:21 PM.