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Civil owned jet aircraft.


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#21 At Sea

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 01:38 PM

So, how about a hawk?

Could one theoretically buy a second hand (or even new) Demilitarised Hawk and fly it? has anyone tried?


I would imagine that one could probably buy a Hawk new from BAe as a private individual, they are a training aircraft after all.

#22 Giorgio N

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 07:03 PM

BAe will never sell a military jet to a private individual. Even if the Hawk is only a trainer, it's an aircraft currently in service with the RAF and the RAF would never allow this to happen. Not to mention all the legal issues with the sale of what is after all a military aircraft. The same occurs pretty much everywhere in the world.
In several countries, the air forces are not very keen to let their aircrafts end up in private hands even after retirement. As a result, many of the former military jets flying today came into the country where they are based from abroad.

#23 fatalbert

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 07:10 PM

For me it would have to be a DH Vampire fb5.I just love the little jet ,it reminds me of an mg midget lol.

#24 PHaTNesS

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 05:04 PM

There was a privately owned MiG-21 over in the hangar near the BCFT centre at BOH. Never saw it flying though.

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#25 upnorth

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 10:23 AM

Are there any Macchi MB-326 trainers on civil registers anywhere?

With aircraft like the Hunter, Jet Provost and Gnat on civil registers, it does surprise me to not see MB-326s out there as warbirds too.

#26 Phil

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:58 AM

New Zealand has a Vampire T55 (I think, a trainer at any rate), a Hunter that has been airworthy, not sure if it still is, a Strikemaster, and an L39 and an A37. There is a group that wants to buy one of our MB339s and keep it flying, not sure if that will happen though.

#27 Paul J

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:23 AM

Interesting comments about the Hawks and justifiable. But what about the many L-39 Albatross that are in civilian hands and still in service with the military in places.

#28 Stu_davros

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:14 AM

There was a privately owned MiG-21 over in the hangar near the BCFT centre at BOH. Never saw it flying though.

Al

I don't think it was anywhere near airworthy, I had a look around it and a lot of the cockpit was missing. It sat outside for quite a long time with no covers on as well.
Cheers,
Stuart

#29 Piltdown Man

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 12:36 PM

I disagree with Giorgio - as would the UK civil owners of the Victor, Vulcan, Jet Provosts, Hunters, Venoms, Meteors, L39s, Vixen etc. BAe would love to sell you a Hawk and the RAF don't really have a say. Admittedly it wouldn't be armed, but you can't have everything. The biggest problem would be getting the thing on your licence so you could fly it. Also, if you could afford the aircraft, the insurance wouldn't be an issue. However, as the Hawk is apparently a rather nice aircraft to fly, a bit of trading with "Campaign" would be possible. However, the Hawk is a bit quick for a first type, so I'd recommend a PC9 (ex. Aussie AF as they have rather nice glass screens) or a "steam" ex-RAF Tucano.

#30 pigsty

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 12:49 PM

BAe would love to sell you a Hawk and the RAF don't really have a say.

No, but the Government does. I could be wrong but I'm fairly sure that the Hawk is available only to military customers because, no matter what it flies like, it's intended as a military aircraft. Once it's retired from service that will probably change, as it has with the Jet Provost and such. Although at current rates of progress we'll all be pushing up daisies before the Hawk retires. I mean, thirty years of work and it's only just reached the Mark 2 - retirement could be a hundred years away!

#31 alex

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 12:56 PM

In Switzerland, we have some Hunters, Vampires and even a Mirage III flying under civil registration which do some passenger flights.


http://clindailes.ch...ations_eng.html
http://www.swisshunt...o...=3&Itemid=2 (sorry, only german)

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#32 Piltdown Man

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 01:12 PM

It's not what the aircraft is designed for that matters, it's the certification standard that counts. Aircraft are aircraft. Military standards are different to civilian which is why it can be difficult to "civilianise" them. I'll admit some governments don't like civilians having military hardware (insecurity I suppose) but they also forget that privately owned Civillian jets can make the most amazing smoking holes, where ever they wish. Once the RAF starts disposing of Hawks (which won't be long) we'll see them with G-regs. I'll give it no more than a few years.

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#33 pigsty

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 01:20 PM

It's not what the aircraft is designed for that matters, it's the certification standard that counts. Aircraft are aircraft. Military standards are different to civilian which is why it can be difficult to "civilianise" them. I'll admit some governments don't like civilians having military hardware (insecurity I suppose) but they also forget that privately owned Civillian jets can make the most amazing smoking holes, where ever they wish. Once the RAF starts disposing of Hawks (which won't be long) we'll see them with G-regs. I'll give it no more than a few years.

PM

What I meant was, it's policy not to sell military equipment to civilians solely because it's military, regardless of how easy or hard it is for civilians to operate it. At root the reason is probably something like "if any Tom Dick or Harry can buy this, our secrets will fall into the wrong hands and our personnel will be at risk". How logical this is, I wouldn't like to say. That civil sales are allowed once the last example has retired from service supports this - apart from afterburning / supersonic aircraft, while there's a rigorous assessment of your ability to keep something safely in the air, there's no presumption that you can't because you're not wearing a uniform.

#34 Giorgio N

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 04:26 PM

I disagree with Giorgio - as would the UK civil owners of the Victor, Vulcan, Jet Provosts, Hunters, Venoms, Meteors, L39s, Vixen etc. BAe would love to sell you a Hawk and the RAF don't really have a say. Admittedly it wouldn't be armed, but you can't have everything. The biggest problem would be getting the thing on your licence so you could fly it. Also, if you could afford the aircraft, the insurance wouldn't be an issue. However, as the Hawk is apparently a rather nice aircraft to fly, a bit of trading with "Campaign" would be possible. However, the Hawk is a bit quick for a first type, so I'd recommend a PC9 (ex. Aussie AF as they have rather nice glass screens) or a "steam" ex-RAF Tucano.


You're making some confusion here: all the types you mention have been purchased after retirement of the type, not from new ! As such they are ex military aircrafts for the entity who sold them (it doesn't matter if the type might still be operational somewhere else). A lot of them didn't even come from the UK, so had nothing to do with the RAF. In the UK it's possible to have these certified and fly them and the same occurs in other countries.
But a Hawk from BAe is a different story: the Hawk is a product commissioned to BAe by the MOD, the sale of any new Hawk from BAe to anyone, civilian or military, is under government control. Unless the government allows BAe to sell to civilians, a direct sale of a new Hawk will not happen, full stop !

#35 SkippyBing

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 05:48 PM

Of course the RAF aren't the only Hawk operators so theoretically it could be possible to acquire one second hand from elsewhere. Alternatively BAe could make one in a non-military configuration, e.g. no hard points, gun sight etc. i.e. a civilian jet trainer, then they'd just have to get it certified...

Incidentally if you want an ex-RAF Tucano there's a company in the US that is selling on about 10 of them.

Correction, 22 of them! Article here.

Edited by SkippyBing, 06 May 2012 - 05:52 PM.


#36 stevehed

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 06:10 PM

Hi All,
There's a Provost based at Newcastle Airport. Pretty certain it's private but it sports red trainer colours.

Regards, Steve

#37 Giorgio N

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 09:19 PM

Of course the RAF aren't the only Hawk operators so theoretically it could be possible to acquire one second hand from elsewhere.


Absolutely ! The same actually happened for other types: there are several F-104 flying in the US and I'm 99% sure none of them came from USAF surplus but they all came from canada or europe. Should any country put a Hawk for sale with civilians allowed to purchase (not all air forces allow this), it would be possible for a civilian to bring it in the UK.

Alternatively BAe could make one in a non-military configuration, e.g. no hard points, gun sight etc. i.e. a civilian jet trainer, then they'd just have to get it certified...


Extremely unlikely: BAe would have to spend money for something that would be of interest to very few people.. and the MoD might still prevent it if they wanted.
Not there have not been purpose built civilian jet trainers before: Alitalia used 4 of a special version of the MB.326 for training and these came directly from the manufacturer.

Edited by Giorgio N, 06 May 2012 - 09:20 PM.