Me262 White 8 Nowotny

[stevehnz]

I've just picked up an Academy me262A-1a in 1/72, one marking option of which is for White 8 supposedly flown by Walter Nowotny. The color calls give it as being RLM 81,82 over 76. It also shows it as having grunherz under the windscreen on the fuselage sides. The marking diagram, such that it is shows a mid fuselage demarcation between top & bottom colours, also on engine pods but several other model & marking sources give it as having a low demarcation. Is there any definitive answer on this or are we back in the subject of speculation/informed guess, both for shades used & demarcation?

Steve.

[Troy Smith]

I've just picked up an Academy me262A-1a in 1/72, one marking option of which is for White 8 supposedly flown by Walter Nowotny. The color calls give it as being RLM 81,82 over 76. It also shows it as having grunherz under the windscreen on the fuselage sides. The marking diagram, such that it is shows a mid fuselage demarcation between top & bottom colours, also on engine pods but several other model & marking sources give it as having a low demarcation. Is there any definitive answer on this or are we back in the subject of speculation/informed guess, both for shades used & demarcation?

Steve.

Steve

a quick google has not turned up the images I was looking for, but there are a series of pics of the Komando Nowotny planes, which were pretty consistent in markings...oh, here we go

not the best, but shows the features I mean as 'consistent' the hard edge tail mottle, yellow thin fuselage band, just in font of df loop, as we as dark uppers, shown on the series of the unit pics, as I say, there are a few images of the unit, the above being one of them. I don't know if there is a pic of showing 8 with a Gunherz..

This one has a replacement engine panel /cowl ring too.

One for the Luftwaffe Expeten board.

Others will know more.

T

Edited March 28, 2012 by Troy Smith

[stevehnz]

Thanks for that Troy, as with all things Luftwaffe later in the war, it seems to be a bit of a moveable feast. I have managed to borrow a copy of the Osprey JG7 book which shows a colour profile of White 7 in the rear with a high demarcation scheme of RLM 82/83 over what appears to be 76 with fairly heavy mottling on the fuselage sides, in fact not too far off White 4 in your pic but without the so called tadpole tail markings, of brush painted or stencilled blotches over RLM 76. Pages 11 & 12 of the osprey work show a line up of of 262s in the Autumn of 1944 with a variety of schemes, at least one like White 4 & a couple with the low demarcation scheme & obviously two colour upper camo, either RLM 82/83 or 81/82, I think it is too dark to be RLM 74/75 even though the date does not preclude that afaik & it may be too early to be 81/82 & again maybe too dark but I'm not well versed in this. I've done a search on Luftwaffe Experten & found very little of use, so might have to make a post there if this fails to elicit the info.

Steve.

[Troy Smith]

Thanks for that Troy, as with all things Luftwaffe later in the war, it seems to be a bit of a moveable feast. I have managed to borrow a copy of the Osprey JG7 book which shows a colour profile of White 7 in the rear with a high demarcation scheme of RLM 82/83 over what appears to be 76 with fairly heavy mottling on the fuselage sides, in fact not too far off White 4 in your pic but without the so called tadpole tail markings, of brush painted or stencilled blotches over RLM 76. Pages 11 & 12 of the osprey work show a line up of of 262s in the Autumn of 1944 with a variety of schemes, at least one like White 4 & a couple with the low demarcation scheme & obviously two colour upper camo, either RLM 82/83 or 81/82, I think it is too dark to be RLM 74/75 even though the date does not preclude that afaik & it may be too early to be 81/82 & again maybe too dark but I'm not well versed in this. I've done a search on Luftwaffe Experten & found very little of use, so might have to make a post there if this fails to elicit the info.

Steve.

HI Steve

certainly is dangerous to be too dogmatic without some evidence. These days I don't trust a profile if I have not seen the photo used as a basis.

Note, given that for years 82 = dunkelgrun[bit like US medium green] and 83 = grun [quite a bright grass green] it now seems that this has been reversed, with 83 being the darker green....

I'd suggest that as Komando Nowotny was the first unit to use the 262 they were early production planes, and as Germany was not in total chaos and the pics show a low contrast uppersurface that 81/83 uppers are likely [if 83 = dark green]

I am aware that early 262 were 74/75 uppers, but not sure when this changed. The late war greens were introduced as defensive dispersal colours, and be the time Komado Nowotny was in operation the allies had bases in France.

The book that may have some pics is not accessible at the mo, I'll look when I get chance.

Have you tried Hyperscale Plane Talking as there are plenty of Luftwaffe buffs there.

cheers

T

[stevehnz]

Hi Troy, the Hyperscale idea was a goody, all sorts of info on it, mainly though that no-one really knows right thru to White 8 never existed. It does make the point that as far as anyone seems to know, there are no pics of any aircraft in that production batch, Nowotny's "White 8" was wrk nr 110400, so all is specualtion. The Kagero no18 Me262 in Combat which I also borrowed from the same source shows profiles of White 1 & White 8 in similar schemes & Osprey 12, Modelling the Me 262 has a Revell 1/72 kit built with the Kagero decals as White 1 so I'll base my build on that with the Academy decals. If, as it seems no-one really knows then I can't come to too much grief. I've been interested in Nowotny since I read Clostermans "Flames in the Sky" about eleventy years ago & I'd like to pay a small tribute to a man who was obviously one hell of a flyer, regardless of his politics.

What you say about RLM 82 & 83 is interesting. My pots of Aeromaster in those shades are the earlier convention, 82 dark & 83 light. I guess I'd want to use them the other way around now as that seems to be the way it has gone. According to this the early Merrick showed 82 dark & 83 light but his later work had slipped in with others interpretations.

Steve.

Edited March 31, 2012 by stevehnz

[tank152]

Hi Steve this might be some use to you.

The photo is from ''Green Hearts first in combat with the Dora 9' by Axel Urbanke. Whether all Kommando Nowotny's carried this scheme is debatable but bear in mind the core of their 262s came from Erprobungskommando 262 and as your 262 is only 2 Werknummer away from this one it may have carried the same ish scheme.

[Stonar]

This aircraft first flew in November 1944. There is a surviving,official,Messerschmitt drawing for the camouflage of the Me262 dated 20 July 1944 which gives the upper colours as RLM 81/82 over RLM76. What makes the text author of the posted pictures above think that that has to be RLM 83? And why would "all planes of Kommando Novotny" have this camouflage? We can say that the overpainting of the fuselage band and who knows what else was done post production Without some good evidence that Leipheim produced aircraft were being finished differently three months after the adoption of the official scheme that is what I'd do. As for the exact nature and demarcations of the scheme you are in "prove me wrong" territory until someone turns up a photo,probably just as your final coat of varnish is drying:) 110389 was dragged out of the shed and considered 50% damaged. It must have been repaired because it was later reported destroyed (98% damage) in a crash in March 1945.

In black and white photographs the contrast between quite dissimilar colours (81 and 82 for example) can be minimal.

Here's an original reference photo of 501232 and an "in the act of landing to surrender" model I made of it.

In colour,something quite different.

Cheers

Steve

Edited March 31, 2012 by Stonar

[stevehnz]

Thanks tank152 & Steve (Stonar), I think I'll pretty much go with the scheme from the Kagero publication which is fairly close to the scheme in the Academy kit, but probably won't use the grun herz, that is taking the unknown a bit far to me even though its feasible given Nowotny's association the them. This is the pic from the Kagero book I'm using but then I think you might know this Steve. I found that a useful thread while looking into this.

Steve.

Edited April 3, 2012 by stevehnz

[FalkeEins]

as far as anyone seems to know, there are no pics of any aircraft in that production batch, Nowotny's "White 8" was wrk nr 110400, so all is specualtion.

This might help, or not ! a machine which may well have been 'white 8' (it is 'a' 'white 8' - see extreme right of pic) from the old Werner Held book, full explanation on my blog. The 'tadpole' tail was NOT a feature of Kommando Nowotny machines - that's a Luftwaffe myth that refuses to die!

http://falkeeins.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/no...8-kommando.html

Edited April 3, 2012 by FalkeEins

[stevehnz]

No, it doesn't help at all. But never mind that, its all part of a process, I think the end result may well be a degree of nuttiness. The link to your blog was welcome & helped to sort out some of the chronology of this conumdrum for me. Somehow I'd got the idea that Kdo Nowotny grew out of EDK 262 &/or III./EJG2 & from that I'm assumed the photos mentioned in the Osprey & Kagero guides that you mentyioned were from this time. I'm also thinking back to some pics I saw recently of White 1 ex III./EJG2 but then JG44 as it ended up near Innsbruck at the wars end & obviously wearing the scheme illustrated in the Kagero panel with White 8. The likelyhood that it postdated White 8 & maybe never served in Kdo Nowotny does lead another wrinkle to it all. The portion of White 8 you show, assuming it is, is very little to go on in constructing a scheme for it & so I'm leaning increasing to White 1 in its Innsbruck colours, at least its documented & photographed & a known quantity. I'll model Nowotny's Fw190A-6 as a tribute to him. Damn, now to find some books on JG44?

Steve.

[Touvdal]

In Me 262 by Smith ans Creek, there is some nice pictures of a lineup of a/c from kommando nowotny, white 3, 4 , 19 and others.

all in 81/82/76, so most likely for white 8 as well.

As for the photo from the old Held book, Niel i would suggest that it is Me 262 V8, it had V8 in white on nose, and you can also see some of the stamzeichen on the rear fuselage V8 had VI + AC. and it was in 74/75/76.

cheers

Jes

[gregair]

Hi folks,

 

I know that this is an old topic (yet fascinating to me), has there been any new findings regarding Nowotny's Me-262 White 8?