Killingholme Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Hi all, I have read that Blackburn Sharks were at stationed at RAF Seletar from 1939-40 and participated on bombing raids against Japanese in 1942. Scanning Air Britain FAA Aircraft, I can find evidence for 9 aircraft, of which 2 were MkII and the rest Mk III. According to the individual aircraft histories only 4 survived accidental damage long enough to be lost in Malaya in the attacks of 1942 viz; K5621 (Mk II), K8926, L2344, L2345 (Mk IIIs) I fancy finishing my model as one of these aircraft. Does anyone have any evidence at all that might suggest how these aircraft were painted at the time of the Japanese invasion? regards, Will Edited March 20, 2012 by Killingholme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 There appears to be no direct evidence: I suggest you look for the thread on the Vildebeeste. I would expect any Sharks in FAA service to have Temperate Sea Scheme (Dark Slate Grey and Extra Dark Sea Grey) upper surfaces and sides, with yellow underneath. This might well have been overpainted in the circumstances. However, as second-line aircraft low in the priority for repaints, they could well have had Temperate Land Scheme of Dark Green and Dark Earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 There appears to be no direct evidence: I suggest you look for the thread on the Vildebeeste. I would expect any Sharks in FAA service to have Temperate Sea Scheme (Dark Slate Grey and Extra Dark Sea Grey) upper surfaces and sides, with yellow underneath. This might well have been overpainted in the circumstances. However, as second-line aircraft low in the priority for repaints, they could well have had Temperate Land Scheme of Dark Green and Dark Earth. Except that these aircraft belonged to 4 AACU and were therefore presumably on RAF charge, which tilts the balance further in favour of DE/DG. A while back I did a bit of rummaging around trying to find out what I could about these aircraft. It wasn't much. You may be interested to know that K5621 coded R conducted the only recorded offensive operation against the Japanese on 22 Jan 1942 when, crewed by Sgts Peter Ballard and Fred McKeever, it dropped 4 x 250 lb bombs on road transport between Muar and Bata Pahat (Bloody Shambles Vol 1, p. 337). The code letter comes from Sturtivant. As you have spotted, Sturtivant lists this aircraft as a Mk.II, not a Mk.III(TT) conversion: it may be that the conversion was simply not mentioned in the records Sturtivant had access to, but at least you have cover for not modifying the Frog kit to a Mk.III. Sturtivant's RAF Flying Training and Support Units also attributes L2343 to 4 AACU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Oh, sorry, I thought we were going to talk about a new title in the Tintin series! bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killingholme Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 OK, thanks all for the advice and information! I think I will go with K5621, coded 'R' and finished in DE/DG with a 'night' distemper applied roughly underneath. Seems kind of plausible enough to me! Related question- it seems very likely that K5621 had Target Tug equipment fitted. I can't seem to find any information regarding what this conversion consisted of. Anyone with any knowledge? sorry to keep asking questions. I'm afraid my rather modest reference library can't bear this level of obscurity! regards Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 OK, thanks all for the advice and information!I think I will go with K5621, coded 'R' and finished in DE/DG with a 'night' distemper applied roughly underneath. That's the scheme I was thinking of for mine, when I build it (around 2047). The target tug equipment question is tricky. Both the Shark and TT equipment in general are poorly documented subjects. Haven't spotted any references to Sharks in The Long Drag, the best (because only) book on the latter subject. I have it in my head that full-blown Shark TT conversions had the same winch and wind-driven generator as the Henley, Defiant, Lysander, Swordfish, etc but I may be completely wrong about that. But K5621 is not listed as a TT conversion, in which case its TT equipment may have been the pre-war TT equipment which could be fitted as and when needed. The external part of this is fitted under the starboard side of the observer's cockpit and is represented by Frog as parts 50 and 51: a small streamlined fairing with a small prop mounted on a tripod. Your guess is as good as anybody else's as to what the interior fitments looked like. But if this equipment was demountable, I imagine that it would have been stripped out before sending an aircraft of such inadequate performance anywhere near harm's way. In fact removing it would probably have been a prerequisite before loading up with 1000 lb of bombs. Just my two penn'orth: an toxic cocktail of dim memories and surmise. I'd be interested in the thoughts of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMacG Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I would concur with 'Seahawk's' observations about the TT equipment being removed before combat ops were carried out; I personally can't imagine that a rather elderly (and worn out?) Shark could even stagger into the air with a 1000lb bomb load AND TT equipment. A couple of other points - didn't the FROG kit of the Shark include the glazed cockpit canopy for the Mk.III? Also, there's a B&W pic of No4 AACU's Swordfish in Bloody Shambles Vol.1. The pic is clearly taken on orthochromatic film (the yellow roundel rings appear black), but it looks to me as if they're in DG/DE uppers (And I do NOT want to get into an argumnt about THATcolour scheme!) So, for the Malayan Sharks, I would SUGGEST deleting the TT gear and try to find a 3-view or a good pic showing the underwing bomb racks; I personally go with a camo scheme of DG/DE uppers with (maybe) sky blue unders, as shown on the Blenheim threaad a couplke of months ago. But nobody really knows for certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 A couple of other points - didn't the FROG kit of the Shark include the glazed cockpit canopy for the Mk.III? Alas, no. But you're welcome to join my campaign for a brand new Blackburn Shark TT.III. As for photos of the bomb-racks, I have a close-up photo from an old Aircraft Illustrated or some such of the underwing bomb-racks on a Portuguese Shark. The outer 2 racks look just like the racks in the new Airfix Swordfish, also for 250 lb bombs (though I think the bombs are something smaller, possibly Portuguese). The innermost rack looks similar but the front rail projects further forward (cut off by edge of photo): same size bomb carried though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justplanecrazy Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 My holy Grail would be a good photo of 4AACU's Sharks! Look forward to more updates from this as I too have a Frogspawn kit earmarked for just such a model. The only thing that so far has put me off doing it is the possibly of a canopy. I believe they would be DE/DG with either painted aluminium or black unders. Regards Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Alas, no. But you're welcome to join my campaign for a brand new Blackburn Shark TT.III.As for photos of the bomb-racks, I have a close-up photo from an old Aircraft Illustrated or some such of the underwing bomb-racks on a Portuguese Shark. The outer 2 racks look just like the racks in the new Airfix Swordfish, also for 250 lb bombs (though I think the bombs are something smaller, possibly Portuguese). The innermost rack looks similar but the front rail projects further forward (cut off by edge of photo): same size bomb carried though. Thinking about this some more, the Sharks operated in a composite unit with some (RAF) Swordfishes. Chances are, the bomb racks used were Swordfish ones anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Thinking about this some more, the Sharks operated in a composite unit with some (RAF) Swordfishes. Chances are, the bomb racks used were Swordfish ones anyway. The Bomb Carriers (not "racks" thats what Americans use!) are not "Swordfish Items," they are a generic design used on all British aircraft of that time. the Larger of the two are called universal bomb carriers and were used at least till the end of WW2. The Smaller light series bomb carriers used for smaller stores (4 at a time) were introduced at the end of WW1 and could be seen on Bristol fighters in the twenties, throughout the WW2 period, and were still used on the recently cancelled Nimrods. I believe they are still listed as an in use item on current in service Helicopters. Selwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Yes: examples can also be found (varying slightly in detail) in the Revell Lancaster and Halifax kits. They should be in the better Spitfire fighterbomber kits and the Hasegawa Beaufighter Mk.XI (bomber) boxing. The same carrier was also carried semi-internally in Hurricane and Typhoon wings - which is why the Hurricane Mk.IIB bomber has only ten guns - the carrier is sitting in the bay where the gun was, and the fairing covers the cartridge exit hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killingholme Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 Alas, no. But you're welcome to join my campaign for a brand new Blackburn Shark TT.III. Just found that 'Chematic' offer a boxing of the Frog kit described as a Shark 'III'. The box art clearly illustrates an aircraft with a canopy. Does anyone know if this is actually included in this boxing or is this misleading box art? regards Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Just found that 'Chematic' offer a boxing of the Frog kit described as a Shark 'III'. The box art clearly illustrates an aircraft with a canopy. Does anyone know if this is actually included in this boxing or is this misleading box art?regards Will Not 100% sure about this but I think I had a look inside one of these when it first came out, courtesy of a friendly trader, and there were no changes to the Frog parts. Like I said, not sure about that, but do try to look before you leap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 The Bomb Carriers (not "racks" thats what Americans use!) are not "Swordfish Items," they are a generic design used on all British aircraft of that time. the Larger of the two are called universal bomb carriers and were used at least till the end of WW2. Thanks for that confirmation. I suspected but you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killingholme Posted March 24, 2012 Author Share Posted March 24, 2012 Not 100% sure about this but I think I had a look inside one of these when it first came out, courtesy of a friendly trader, and there were no changes to the Frog parts. Like I said, not sure about that, but do try to look before you leap! Thanks, I'll try to find a friendly trader/ ebayer. Otherwise it's going to be a brave first attempt at crash moulding a canopy. I was so desperate to avoid doing this I have even tried to force a cut-down Fairey Battle canopy on to my model earlier... Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I think a look at a Harvard canopy might turn you in that direction, but a flat windscreen would still be needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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