Correct Gun-sight for Tamiya Spitfire Mk IX

[Chris Preston]

Greetings All,

I've finally started work on my Tamiya 32nd scale Spitfire Mk IX, and I'm wondering what the correct gun-sight would be for a 443 Sqn, RCAF, Spitfire, operating during June/July 1944 - would it be the GM2 Gun-sight or the Mk II Gyro Gun-sight? The a/c serial number will be MK636.

Cheers,

Chris Preston,

Victoria, BC,

Canada

[Edgar]

I know nothing.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Edgar

[Daniel Cox]

It's rather unlikely that the gyro gun sight would have been fitted that early; the Local Technical Committee were still discussing it on July 11th., and we all know how quickly committees work. The RAF list it as appearing 24-7-44, adding that it was "Special Orders Only," and needed a CWP (contractor's working party) to do the work. It was mandatory that the low-back XVI & F.R.XIV should have the sight, which had to be fitted before the fuselage tank was installed, so they might have had priority for the GGS, but paperwork is delightfully (and typically) vague on that point. Personally, I doubt that a mid-1944 airframe would have had the GGS, but senior officers were renowned for pulling strings; sorry to be so imprecise.

Edgar

Hi Chris,

I am sorry to say in this instance Edgar is wrong regarding the usage of the Ferranti Gyroscopic Gun Sight G.G.S. Mk.IID, despite this having been proven already in a previous discussion. The following below from some of my research should clarify this once and for all.

There is some film footage in the collection of British Pathé, as well as a number of photographs captured by Flying Officer (F/O) A. Goodchild, that are held in the collection of the Imperial War Museum (IWM). That show various 442 and 443 Squadron (Sqn.) Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) Spitfire LF Mk.IXc aircraft all equipped with the G.G.S. Mk.IID sight in June of 1944. The before mentioned still and moving images were captured on Saturday, June 10, 1944 at the Advanced Landing Ground (ALG) British Strip No. 3 at Sainte-Croix-sur-Mer, Normandy.

Vickers-Supermarine Spitfire LF Mk.IXc aircraft identified in photographs with Gyro Sights at Sainte-Croix-sur-Mer on 10 June 1944 are listed below;

MK772 Y2-P 442 Sqn. RCAF

Y2-V 442 Sqn. RCAF

Y2-X 442 Sqn. RCAF

MH370 2I-N 443 Sqn. RCAF

Note: Other Spitfires are also seen with Gyro Sights as the above listed aircraft at the same location and date, unfortunately however I have been unable to establish their individual aircraft identities to date.

In addition to the material above, there are also images captured by Flight Lieutenant (F/Lt) B. J. Daventry at ALG British Strip No. 2 at Bazenville, Normandy 13 August 1944.That show various 421 Sqn. RCAF Spitfire LF Mk.IXc aircraft equipped with the G.G.S. Mk.IID as well. There is also an image captured by Pilot Officer P/O R. R. Broom of someone operating the Gyro Sight on a 127 Wing Spitfire Mk.IX on 17 August 1944, that was also at ALG British Strip No. 2 at Bazenville, Normandy.

The Operations Record Book (ORB) of 421 Sqn RCAF records that the squadron was made temporarily Non-Operational for the installation of the new G.G.S. Mk.II into its aircraft on the 21st of April 1944. Later on the 23rd of April the 421 Sqn. ORB states that "Everyone well pleased with new G.G.S. Mk. II".

Vickers-Supermarine Spitfire LF Mk.IXc aircraft identified in photographs with Gyro Sights at Bazenville 13 August 1944 are listed below;

MJ820 AU- 421 Sqn. RCAF

Note: Other Spitfires are also seen with Gyro Sights as the above listed aircraft at the same location and date, unfortunately however I have been unable to establish their individual aircraft identities to date.

In summary it is fair to say that on examination of the available evidence, Spitfires of 144 and 127 Wings were using Gyro Sights from circa May-June 1944 onwards. It is also highly likely that the Spitfire LF Mk.IXc MK636 2I-E of 443 Sqn. was fitted with the G.G.S. Mk.IID as well.

Bibliography

British Pathé (Video Newsreel Film)

UN 0877 A / 1969.01 Making Airfield - Sainte-Croix-sur-Mer - 10 June 1944.

Imperial War Museum Images

CL 76

CL 87

CL 88

CL 95

CL 99

CL 782

CL 854

HU 92137

HU 92139

The National Archives, Kew

AIR 27/1828 No. 421 Squadron (Royal Canadian Air Force) Operations Record Book

AIR 27/1881 No. 441 Squadron (Royal Canadian Air Force) Operations Record Book

AIR 27/1882 No. 442 Squadron (Royal Canadian Air Force) Operations Record Book

AIR 27/1883 No. 443 Squadron (Royal Canadian Air Force) Operations Record Book

Books

Carter, Ian. Fighter Command: 1939-45, Photographs from the Imperial War Museum, Ian Allan, Hersham, 2002.

Shores, Christopher. Thomas, Chris. 2nd Tactical Air Force: Volume One, Spartan to Normandy, June 1943 to June 1944, Classic, Hersham, 2004.

Shores, Christopher. Thomas, Chris. 2nd Tactical Air Force: Volume Two, Breakout to Bodenplatte, July 1944 to January 1945, Classic, Hersham, 2005.

Price, Alfred. Dr. Late Marque, Spitfire Aces 1942-45, Osprey Aircraft of the Aces 5, Osprey, London, 1995.

I hope the above was of some help to you.

Cheers,

Daniel.

[Edgar]

Just shows how it pays to look at paperwork, before jumping in (Oh, goody, Edgar's got it wrong again.) On 31-5-44, it was reported that 300 Spitfire IX & 100 Seafire III had been retrofitted with the gyro sight, and it would now be possible for manufacturers to concentrate on the coming Mk.III. Sorry about that.

Edgar

[gingerbob]

...and it would now be possible for manufacturers to concentrate on the coming Mk.III.

Mk.III gunsight? Whazzat? I should probably google it, but if you, Edgar, or anyone wants to give the potted quick history I'm interested. My level of sophistication is more like "regular or GGS?" but that doesn't mean I'm not willing to learn.

Daniel, I think when your Spits were discussed I gave you a comment from a file concerning the Canadian Wing and some Norwegians having X many GGSs (in June?)- I failed on a cursory attempt to find that comment this morning, so if you happen to have a record of it I'd love to be reminded!

bob

[JOAN]

Hello,

I have this in my personnal album ( Public Archives of Canada ).

Helpful ?

Cheers

Olivier

Edited March 9, 2012 by JOAN

[Daniel Cox]

Hello,

I have this in my personnal album ( crown copyright ).

Helpful ?

Cheers

Olivier

Hi Oliver,

Thanks for posting that image of a 602 Squadron RAF Spitfire, this Sqn's Spitfires during the time being discussed had the more common for the time Reflector Gun Sight fitted as evidenced elsewhere and in the lovely picture you have shared in your post. I wonder what day this photograph was taken and if it was at B. 11, Longues?

Cheers,

Daniel.

[Daniel Cox]

Daniel, I think when your Spits were discussed I gave you a comment from a file concerning the Canadian Wing and some Norwegians having X many GGSs (in June?)- I failed on a cursory attempt to find that comment this morning, so if you happen to have a record of it I'd love to be reminded!

bob

Hi Bob,

I vaguely remember that as well, at some point I'll see if I can find it over the weekend for you thanks for reminding me.

Cheers,

Daniel.

[JOAN]

Hi Oliver,

Thanks for posting that image of a 602 Squadron RAF Spitfire, this Sqn's Spitfires during the time being discussed had the more common for the time Reflector Gun Sight fitted as evidenced elsewhere and in the lovely picture you have shared in your post. I wonder what day this photograph was taken and if it was at B. 11, Longues?

Cheers,

Daniel.

Hi Daniel,

The exact location is unknow.However the comments on back is : Canadians in France : photographer : Lieut.Bell - roll N°27 - 16 jun 44 - Location : RCAF airport in France - Story : evacuation of casualties.

N° 34847 - Line up of ambulances past nose of Spitfire on the field.

Stamp : Please credit the public archives of Canada. ( note that this is the correct copyright : not Crown )

Cheers

Olivier

[Daniel Cox]

On 31-5-44, it was reported that 300 Spitfire IX

Edgar

Hi Edgar,

Isn't that date interesting, I have suspected that 144 Wing probably received their Gyro Sights in May 1944, unfortunately so far I haven't found a document that states this so the only certainty I've had with 144 Wing having those sights is due to a number of images plus film from early June 1944 onwards that evidence this.

On the other hand I was certain that 127 Wing had received theirs in May due to extant photographs and documents from the period. The next question is who (Spitfire operators) apart from 127 & 144 Wings had these sights during the Normandy Campaign?

I know that 123 RAF, 602 RAF, 453 RAAF, 312 (Czech) didn't have them at the time, plus I have also found pictures of a 412 RCAF Spitfire captured on 11 June 1944, a 485 NZ Spitfire captured during August 1944 plus a 33 RAF Spitfire filmed on 30 July 1944 all with Gyro Sights visible.

Cheers,

Daniel.

[Daniel Cox]

Hi Daniel,

The exact location is unknow.However the comments on back is : Canadians in France : photographer : Lieut.Bell - roll N°27 - 16 jun 44 - Location : RCAF airport in France - Story : evacuation of casualties.

N° 34847 - Line up of ambulances past nose of Spitfire on the field.

Stamp : Please credit the public archives of Canada. ( note that this is the correct copyright : not Crown )

Cheers

Olivier

Hi again Oliver,

Well that's helpful, it's a great starting point for me to find out a lot more about that picture.

Cheers,

Daniel.

[gingerbob]

For your convenience, here's the link Daniel referred to, or one of them, anyway:

Daniel's thread

bob

[JOAN]

Hi again Oliver,

Well that's helpful, it's a great starting point for me to find out a lot more about that picture.

Cheers,

Daniel.

Daniel,

I will be of course very very interrested about informations on this photo !

Cheers

Olivier

[Edgar]

Mk.III gunsight? Whazzat?

As far as I can tell, it didn't happen, unless it's a misnomer for the IID series III, which was introduced in late 1945; post-war the sequence jumped to the IVB, which was introduced, for the 14, 18, 22 & 24, in 1949, and was also used on the Vampire.

[gingerbob]

Thanks Edgar. They must have at least thought about one, or they wouldn't have gotten to IV!

Edit to add:

Here it is! Finally found the comment I'd been looking for: (so you can call off the search, Daniel)

7 Apr 44 DCAS Conference (a regular series of meetings on development, etc)

Gyro gunsight

1. DofOps(AD) reported that the Canadian Wing at Kenley have now 22 gyro sights fitted in their a/c. The a/c have been flown over France, but the sight has not yet been used in action. The Norwegian Wing at North Weald also has a small number of the sights. It is planned to allocate supplies of this sight to ADGB sqns after TAF requirements have been met.

[and for general interest:]

Franks suit

2. DofOps (AD) reported that two Norwegian sqns, 331 and 332, and 66 Sqn, are now carrying out operational trials with the Franks suit, and using it over France.

The Kenley Wing is not the right squadrons, but this at least is further evidence of the arrival of GGSs on squadrons.

bob

Edited March 10, 2012 by gingerbob

[Edgar]

127 Wing deployed to B.2 A.L.G. nr. Bazenville from 14-6-44, then to B.26 Marcully-La Campagne from 28-8-44; 144 wing deployed to B.3 St. Croix-sur-mer 14-6-44, where it disbanded 31-7-44.

[Daniel Cox]

Thanks Bob,

I'm glad you found it, there is an interesting aside to your reference to the Franks suit from the Canadian William Franks. Coincidentally plus quite independently at around the same time in 1940 an Australian Professor from Sydney University named frank Cotton who was also a nephew of Sydney Cotton, also invented a G-Suit which was superior to the Franks suit for it used exhaust gasses (therefore used less weight compared to the Franks system) to provide the pressure required. In fact Cottons suit was used by the RAAF in Operations in northern Australia, he also shared his research and suits with the United States (he helped develop the US suits as well while visiting them) and England I can't remember if he did the same with the Canadians.

In archival documents and artefacts held by Sydney University, Cotton relatives plus the Australian National Archives, there are documents from the United States acknowledging Cotton as the progenitor of all of their successful G-Suits. His suit and research was far beyond the Americans and a more practicable solution to the problem than Franks efforts. The Cotton suit had one significant failing however in that one could not wear boots with it which was a significant flaw if needing to walk a long way if forced down. The Americans fixed that issue

There is much more, I have access to the artefacts and documents for Cotton's work yet to date have not dug far into this since I am at present working on a history of 85 Squadron RAF Hurricane operations plus a history of 2nd TAF Spitfire operations for the Normandy campaign of 1944. Cotton's G-Suit work is third on the list.

Cheers,

Daniel.

[Edgar]

To revert to the original enquiry, the addition of the GGS to the cockpit also entailed modification to the throttle lever (first type of HOTAS, I suppose.) This is a XVI, but the principle remained the same.

[gingerbob]

I note that MK636 did not officially (per the aircraft record card) join 443 Squadron until 27 July, though she came from Castle Bromwich in March.

bob

[Daniel Cox]

I note that MK636 did not officially (per the aircraft record card) join 443 Squadron until 27 July, though she came from Castle Bromwich in March.

bob

Hi Bob,

Have you sighted the Air Ministry Forms 78 Aircraft Movement Card for MK636? I haven't myself, and note that according to www.spitfires.ukf.net states "9MU 9-3-44 443S 27-7-44" for this aircraft. As far as I remember there is a similar entry to be found in the work by Morgan and Shacklady.

That said the first entry for MK636 in the 443 Squadron Operations Record Book lists this aircraft as being flown by Squadron Leader H. W. McLeod on 1 May 1944 from 1300 hrs to 1510 hrs on a close escort to 72 Marauders.

The reason why I am wondering if you have seen the Forms 78 Card is to determine without having seen it myself if this is an omission on the card or in the secondary sources that at some point in March 443 Squadron received this aircraft?

At some point I intend to examine all extant Forms 78 Card applicable to Spitfire Mk. IX aircraft that were used in the Normandy Campaign.

Cheers,

Daniel.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Daniel Cox

[gingerbob]

No, I was just going from the website you mention. I know the chap who put it together- I met him when he was checking the Forms at the RAF Museum! It is a synthesis of the "Spit the Hist" data and Air Britain series plus whatever other sources were available (Fighter Command Losses, for example), with a lot of corrections and cross checking.

I suspect that the record card does not have anything additional. Apparently there is a period of time in the first half of 1944 during which a lot of movements/ transfers of "ownership" did not get recorded. There may be other records at the PRO (National Archives) that could help untangle that period, but I haven't had the chance to go look since I became aware of the problem. My first step will be a diligent study of the 2TAF series.

bob

[Edgar]

Aircraft Movement Cards, owned by the Air Historical Branch, used to be held at Kew, but no longer. There are dark rumours that the AHB is less helpful than it used to be, but I have not come up against them, so can't speak from my own experiences. Microfilm of the cards is held in the RAF Museum library.

[gingerbob]

All I know about the AHB is that they wouldn't give me the time of day since I wasn't ex British Military. They also claimed that they didn't have anything that wasn't available at the PRO, which I wonder about. Anyway, their organization might throw things into view that wouldn't be found the same way elsewhere. Mind you, that was about ten years ago that I inquired.

bob

[Chris Preston]

All,

Thank you very much for your help with my questions - all of you are a gold-mine of information. I'm not sure if any of you are aware if this, but

443 "Hornet" Sqn RCAF is still operational in the RCAF (and yes - it's official - our Navy and Air Force are "Royal" once again, and officially the Royal Canadian Navy, and Royal Canadian Air Force). The squadron is now 443 Maritime Helicopter Squadron, flying Sea King anti-submarine helicopters off the ships of our Pacific fleet, and is based right here in Victoria, BC. Squadron call-signs for individual aircraft are prefixed with "Stinger" during transmissions, reflecting their history as 443 Hornet Sdn - I.E - "Stinger 34".

I became aware of 443 Sqn's history through local fellow model and Spitfure Guru - Brad Main, who's been known to frequent this site, and when Tamiya's new 32nd scale kit came out, decided that I wanted to do it in 443 Sqn markings - specifically that of S/L Wally MacLeod, who was KIA on 27 SEP 44. I'm planning on completing the model as "21*E", serial number MK636, with D-Day markings.

Thanks again for your help.

Cheers,

Chris Preston,

Victoria, BC,

Canada

[Brad-M]

Hello Gents,

Now I have a question. Do any of the squadron operation record books mention that pilots removed the gyro sights and had the reflector sights put back in? I have personally spoken to RCAF Spitfire pilots who flew during WWII, saying that they had the gyro sights replaced with the older sights. I'd be very curious to know.

Thanks

Brad

ps: I am not a Spitfire Guru, you guys are