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dahut

Me262 Kit question

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Antoine    1,245
If you push the slats in on a Bf109,on the ground,they stay in. If they wouldn't on the Me262 maybe that's part of the reason that they were lockable.

Agree.

You can even have one down, and the other up.

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andym    214
Airfix put separate LE slats on their Bf109e at 1/48 scale, and some of the revellogram ProModeller kits had slats (think it was the helldiver?) - so no real technical reasons why it cant be done apart from cost- more parts in the mould means a costlier tool.

And along with every other Bf109 and 110 model with separate slats the slat "well" is way too deep and the slats too thick at their trailing edges (and often wrongly shaped chordwise too)! I suspect in most cases not supplying separate slats is a cost issue. Also with Tamiya in mind they often get a lot of their info from museum specimens which usually have the slats up . Copying museum exhibits can of course lead to strange errors such as the Mk3 wings on the first issue of the 1/48 Meteor Mk1, wrong wing panel lines on the Beaufighters, the applique plates found on several of their aircraft kits and their very strangely shaped V1..... was it copied from a museum replica?

Andy

Edited by andym

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dahut    2
Is every P-51 kit without separate flaps also a BIG error in your view, then?

If they are prominent and deployed as often as not, then yes.

Okay, the Me-262 slats could be locked closed... but they could also just as readily be open depending on the moment in time you are depicting.

Im no Mustang expert, but if it was common to see the flaps deployed on the ground then, yeah, the option should be included. Particularly in the big money, high detail kits of today.

Thats not a stretch.

Edited by dahut

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dahut    2

duplicate

Edited by dahut

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dahut    2
I've always wondered why they didn't include them.

Here's a quick & simple maybe whynot,

Imagine trying to design a mould for scale slats.

They would be Very thin & fragile, plus you need a 'gate' to

let the molten plastic in, which would mean they would

be difficult to cut off the tree without damage.

Far simpler & cheaper for the model company to

ignore them.

Plus, then you don't need a cutout in the leading edge

of the upper & lower wing halves.

Pete

You are completely right - it is certainly easier to omit them.

Actually, I think your explanation is probably on the mark... the makers simply do not want to be arsed with them.

Edited by dahut

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Adam Maas    77
If they are prominent and deployed as often as not, then yes.

Okay, the Me-262 slats could be locked closed... but they could also just as readily be open depending on the moment in time you are depicting.

Im no Mustang expert, but if it was common to see the flaps deployed on the ground then, yeah, the option should be included. Particularly in the big money, high detail kits of today.

Thats not a stretch.

Indeed, since any Merlin-engined P-51 would have the flaps deployed within an hour or so of shutdown due to Hydraulic bleeddown, kits hsould have that option, especially if they're engineered to have the main gear doors deployed as the doors are closed if powered up and don't bleed down until after the flaps do.

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Indeed, since any Merlin-engined P-51 would have the flaps deployed within an hour or so of shutdown due to Hydraulic bleeddown, kits hsould have that option, especially if they're engineered to have the main gear doors deployed as the doors are closed if powered up and don't bleed down until after the flaps do.

Mustang Flaps didn't bleed down Pilots notes indicate they were lowered before leaving the A/C " To prevent people walking on then " The Doors bled down . I've seen a good few Mustangs starting up , the Flaps stay down , whilst the doors start to close.

Cheers

Terry McGrady

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Adam Maas    77
Mustang Flaps didn't bleed down Pilots notes indicate they were lowered before leaving the A/C " To prevent people walking on then " The Doors bled down . I've seen a good few Mustangs starting up , the Flaps stay down , whilst the doors start to close.

Cheers

Terry McGrady

They may be commonly left down (which makes some sense given they're a no-step zone), but if they are up at shutdown they will bleed down, just like the doors do. My understanding is that the flaps were normally left up during WW2 and the opposite is common practice in the warbird world.

Note, this video clearly shows the flaps coming up on startup on a P-51:

Edited by Adam Maas

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They may be commonly left down (which makes some sense given they're a no-step zone), but if they are up at shutdown they will bleed down, just like the doors do. My understanding is that the flaps were normally left up during WW2 and the opposite is common practice in the warbird world.

Note, this video clearly shows the flaps coming up on startup on a P-51:

I afraid not, the Flaps are Lowered . In the Video the flaps come up because the pilot has raised them . There are So many photos of WWII a/c about that illustrate this

Parked Mustangs with the Flaps up are a rarity in comparison

Cheers

Terry Mcgrady

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Stonar    198
My understanding is that the flaps were normally left up during WW2 and the opposite is common practice in the warbird world.

Raised whilst taxying and dropped once parked. From the Mustang III pilot's notes.

Mustang_III_flaps.jpg

I'm sure there were many different practices in reality.

Steve

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Adam Maas    77
I afraid not, the Flaps are Lowered . In the Video the flaps come up because the pilot has raised them . There are So many photos of WWII a/c about that illustrate this

Parked Mustangs with the Flaps up are a rarity in comparison

Cheers

Terry Mcgrady

Watch the video again, the flaps start coming up at the same time as the doors, it's clearly the hydraulics pressurizing, not the pilot. Parked Mustangs with flaps up would be a rarity under either possibility since bleed would be dropping them starting shortly after shutdown even if they were raised at shutdown.

Raised whilst taxying and dropped once parked. From the Mustang III pilot's notes.

Mustang_III_flaps.jpg

I'm sure there were many different practices in reality.

Steve

I stand corrected on that point.

Edited by Adam Maas

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Watch the video again, the flaps start coming up at the same time as the doors, it's clearly the hydraulics pressurizing, not the pilot. Parked Mustangs with flaps up would be a rarity under either possibility since bleed would be dropping them starting shortly after shutdown even if they were raised at shutdown.

Well I've got photos of Mustangs with Landing gear doors down fully and flaps up . But Further comment would only hi jack this thread more than has been already done.

Cheers

Terry McGrady

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If they wouldn't on the Me262 maybe that's part of the reason that they were lockable.

Where did you hear they were "lockable"? I would be VERY leery of flying a slat equipped airplane that had the ability to have the slats locked. This argument has raged for eons about the F-86 as well, despite the fact that nothing in the F-86 TO mentions anything about locking them, nor do any former F-86 crew chiefs remember such a thing.

Consider if you were the pilot. Would you ever want to take a chance that some numbskull had locked one slat but not the other? If something can go wrong in aviation, it will. If it's possible for some dope to do something stupid, he will. The idea of a 'lockable' slat is an accident waiting to happen.

Unless somebody shows me a picture of the locking mechanism and some technical documentation to back it up, I'm not buying it.

I stand to be corrected, but I don't think they were so equipped.

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Oy vay... not P-51 flaps again. I've spoken with three different P-51 owner/pilot/mechanics recently. I've also asked this question of a former WWII P-51 crew chief. All four of them pretty much agree that while P-51 (WWII era, new or nearly new airplanes) hydraulics *might* have had some bleed, it's simply not the case that the flaps and gear doors bled down immediately after shutdown. The system did not operate that way. The guy who was a WWII crew chief told me (and these are his words) that as soon as his pilot taxied in and shut down the airplane and dismounted, he (the CC) hopped up and selected flaps down on the flap handle. Residual pressure in the system would then drop the flaps, which was always done to allow better access to the wing for the fuel crew and the armament crew. It also discouraged anyone from stepping on the flaps. As soon as the pilot mounted and started up for the next mission (or if the ground crew needed to run up the engine for some reason) the flaps would be raised and would stay put.

The main gear doors may or may not have bled down on their own, just depending on how many leaks there were in the system. You see a LOT of pics of wartime Mustangs with the flaps down and the gear doors up (about 3 out of 4 in my unscientific survey of photos). If they needed to get into the gear well for some reason, they could pull the pressure release handle and drop them. The pressure release handle ONLY operated the main gear and the main gear doors, so pulling it would not affect the flaps.

All of the current owner/pilot/mechanics agreed that if the flaps were up, simply losing hydraulic pressure would not necessarily mean the flaps would come down on their own. You might be able to pull them down by hand, but they don't just fall down. The viscosity of the hydraulic fluid, if nothing else, would tend to keep them where they are.

This may not be the last word on the subject, but this is factual information from people who deal with P-51s every day, and who worked on them during the war. It's not speculation or guess work. I'm sure somebody has better information out there... and I'm sure they'll post it.

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Work In Progress    1,053
Where did you hear they were "lockable"? I would be VERY leery of flying a slat equipped airplane that had the ability to have the slats locked. This argument has raged for eons about the F-86 as well, despite the fact that nothing in the F-86 TO mentions anything about locking them, nor do any former F-86 crew chiefs remember such a thing.

Consider if you were the pilot. Would you ever want to take a chance that some numbskull had locked one slat but not the other? If something can go wrong in aviation, it will. If it's possible for some dope to do something stupid, he will. The idea of a 'lockable' slat is an accident waiting to happen.

Unless somebody shows me a picture of the locking mechanism and some technical documentation to back it up, I'm not buying it.

I stand to be corrected, but I don't think they were so equipped.

That means you haven't flown a Tiger Moth, I imagine.

On that and other dH types the automatic slats are frequently lockable, from inside cockpit, for various reasons including:

- preventing them snatching and banging in gusts of wind

- to prevent damage when taxiing on poor surfaces

- preventing them deploying in manoeuvres where you would rather not risk them deploying when you don't want them to, e.g. spinning or aerobatics.

The cockpit control, in the case of de Havilland types, has two simple positions: (1) slats both locked closed, or (2) slats unlocked and free to do their own thing independently under purely aerodynamic forces (no springs). So the question of them being locked asymmetrically does not arise. I haven't flown a 109 or Buchon but believe the dH slat patent was licensed by Messerschmitt pre-war which demonstrates that they at least knew how dH did it.

The question of whether you would trust "some numbskull" to unlock the slats is exactly the same question as whether you would trust that numbskull to unlock the other flying controls before flight, or on types with folding / detachable surfaces, like naval types and most sailplanes, to determine whether they are connected at all. I assume you would not trust anyone else to do your pre-flight checks of the controls or pre-take-off vital actions, and neither would I. But if in wartime you are putting your trust in your crew chief to do the preflight, then if you can't trust him with a slat lock you can't trust him with any other critical part of the aeroplane.

If the pilot is a numbskull, then of course he will die from something or other in due course anyway.

Edited by Work In Progress

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Stonar    198
Where did you hear they were "lockable"?

I refer the honourable gentleman to post number twelve,which I'm guessing he didn't read.

Cheers

Steve

Edited by Stonar

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I have watched this thread for some time now. As an aircraft engineer of old, I was taught in training( way back in seventy's) that the leading edge slats where held lightly in (springs), only needing to deploy when required to increase flow across the top of the wing, how they deploy is via differential air pressure. The trainer that took our lession had various pictures and illustrations to show how things would work. Going back to the fact if they are deployed to often in flight, then it will cause unnecessary drag on the aircraft. Finally some aircraft types do have lockable slats, but I don't which.

Flaps, if you can push a flap down without Hyd pressure your a damn site stronger than me due to the fact OM15/Skydrol/Hyd oil has very little compressibility, I think in the region in of 98%. This is called hydraulicic lock, plus you will also be stressing the flap runners/brackets.

Me262 slats, may be set up differently and the forward stance of the aircraft may have some thing to do with them being deployed, sorry can not help further.

Recently left the RAF as a Cheif SF

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Wayne rc    0
Well sure. Just think of the immense and even immeasurable detail kits are treated to today. Omitting the slats because they might be too complex isn't much of a dodge.

ESCI was doing detail in 1/72, 25 years ago, that is still impressive. But we can't have slats on a new tool 1/48 Me-262?

I'm late coming to this party; the details and nuances of the Me-262 are new to me. I don't own four distinct tomes on the thing, and have really only been aware of it.

Microscopic detail on the matter has never been part of my repertoire. So this slat business was a revelation.

So imagine my surprise to learn how prominent these slats were on the real thing, and that no one has ever gotten them right or offered them as an option in a kit box. I called it a BIG error in the beginning and was chided for using hyperbole. I'm thinking now I wasn't far off.

I have a neat little book called Me 262 stormbird rising by Hugh Morgan, most pics show slats up even on abandoned machines, I think a little re scribing to make them standout from the normal panel lines would'nt hurt,esp either side of the nacelles where the slats dont seem to be very flush,if you really wants slats save your dosh and laminate some plasticard,flaps down on lots of pics of parked 262's ps is anyone aware of the 262's built in texas recently,

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