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Buffalo colour discussion please


Mentalguru

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I dont consider myself to be an expert on RAF colours, but "assume" the spinner and band are "Sky" whatever that actually was in late 1941 on he other side of the world with third rate aircraft and units...

Having had another look- some highly "Cobber" gear in evidence

Time taken to reply much appreciated- Mental

http://airwar.hihome.com/gwp/f2a/gwp-no21squard.jpg

Edited by Mentalguru
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I dont consider myself to be an expert on RAF colours, but "assume" the spinner and band are "Sky" whatever that actually was in late 1941 on he other side of the world with third rate aircraft and units...

Presumably you are referring to the aircraft allocated to 453 Squadron? Standard RAF colours, because AFAIK they were shipped as originally painted for ETO usage. Therefore the scheme would be dark green, dark earth, sky, black port wing under surface. Spinner and tail band in sky. Sky as in 'Type S'. Humbrol H90 is pretty close.

peebeep

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I haven't found anything, on that particular Squadron, but Ian K. Baker found a real oddball scheme, for some Buffaloes. Aircraft, which had been earmarked, and painted, for the Netherlands East Indies, arrived too late to be delivered, so were taken over by the Australians. Upper colours were Dark Olive Drab 41 and Medium Green 42, over, initially at least, aluminium undersides, which were, later, oversprayed Sky Blue (not "our" Sky.) The original, early, American stars have been painted out (with Foliage Green?) then repainted blue/white, on the upper wings, red/white/bue/yellow on the fuselage sides, none, at first, underneath, blue/white later. No help at all, I know, but thought you might find it interesting.

Edgar

Edited by Edgar
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Presumably you are referring to the aircraft allocated to 453 Squadron? Standard RAF colours, because AFAIK they were shipped as originally painted for ETO usage. Therefore the scheme would be dark green, dark earth, sky, black port wing under surface. Spinner and tail band in sky. Sky as in 'Type S'. Humbrol H90 is pretty close.

peebeep

thanks, so what shade are the underside and codes then? cos it isnt the same as the spinner and band.. and it isnt black- well no at least not on the starboard sige..

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My refs. indicate that some aircraft had black undersurfaces, some sky. Why this should be is not clear. I can also recall some references showing sky undersurfaces with a black port wing, but thinking about it that is probably unlikely. Codes were probably medium sea grey. Some aircraft have the rear half of the spinner in black. Also I note that most aircraft were delivered direct, not via the UK so one must assume paints would be US equivalents of RAF colours. I am wondering if SAM ever did this as an Aircraft in Detail, but this is definitely a topic worthy of further research.

peebeep

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Mental,

This aircraft has a profile in Fighting Colours by Michael J.F. Bowyer. The scheme is Dark Earth/Dark Green camo with Duck Egg Blue undersurfaces and Sky fuselage band and spinner. In the book he states "Note that the sky band and spinner differs much in shade from the duck egg shade (blue or green) of the undersurfaces."

HTH,

Ian

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One and the same colour if you look at the AMO. I would go along with Dave with sky blue as a possibility.

peebeep

Thats the line I was thinking of taking- without any great colour pics- artefacts, its not going to be easy to prove or otherwise.

However- Im thinking the interior colour under the canopy is quite light- uuurhhhh- could be z.c. z.c.g. RAF geen/grey, brewster interior colour.. god knows

Could do with a pointer on if I should fit the bomb racks or not though- my "Bloody Shambles" is buried in storage...

Edited by Mentalguru
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The British 339E Buffaloes were not fitted with bomb racks. The Dutch 339C's and D's were, which explains what looks like a second throttle control quadrant on the left side cockpit wall for the F2A's and Dutch aircraft, not on the 339E's.

My best guess on interior color is an American approximation of British Interior Green. If the British Purchasing Commission was specifying 'A' and 'B' patterns for the camouflage, it seems likely they would also have specified the 'proper' interior finish.

The undersurface color (pardon me, colour) is still being debated, but wasn't Sky. The BPC didn't have a sample of Sky when they came to the U.S. They evidently were informed that 'Sky' should be used but the only color samples they had were for Sky Grey and Sky Blue. That's why Kittyhawks and Warhawks in RAF colors were in Sky Grey undersurfaces. On the other hand, there is a painting chart for the Martlett which specifies Sky Blue. No one has been able to locate painting instructions for the Brewster order, so it's a toss-up between Sky Grey and Sky Blue, with the Grey being a slight favorite. That's mainly because we know it was widely used by American produced aircraft during this time period. US manufacturers started using the correct Sky color later, but well after the Buffaloes had been shipped off.

Except for the first three aircraft on the order, all Buffaloes were shipped directly to the Far East as painted by Brewster; Sky identification bands and spinner colors were applied by RAF Maintenance Units (they had the correct color by summer 1941) as were codes. For all squadrons except one, codes were in Medium Sea Grey. The exception was 488, which used Sky for the codes - that's why the 488 codes never cross the Sky fuselage band.

The Night port wing undersurface marking was another in-theater application and was pretty random - some aircraft within a given squadron had it, others didn't. The 'D' proportion (1-2-3) underwing roundels were a Brewster mistake, and corrected at the Brewster plant halfway through the production run to the correct 'A' (1-3-5) proportions.

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The British 339E Buffaloes were not fitted with bomb racks. The Dutch 339C's and D's were, which explains what looks like a second throttle control quadrant on the left side cockpit wall for the F2A's and Dutch aircraft, not on the 339E's.

My best guess on interior color is an American approximation of British Interior Green. If the British Purchasing Commission was specifying 'A' and 'B' patterns for the camouflage, it seems likely they would also have specified the 'proper' interior finish.

The undersurface color (pardon me, colour) is still being debated, but wasn't Sky. The BPC didn't have a sample of Sky when they came to the U.S. They evidently were informed that 'Sky' should be used but the only color samples they had were for Sky Grey and Sky Blue. That's why Kittyhawks and Warhawks in RAF colors were in Sky Grey undersurfaces. On the other hand, there is a painting chart for the Martlett which specifies Sky Blue. No one has been able to locate painting instructions for the Brewster order, so it's a toss-up between Sky Grey and Sky Blue, with the Grey being a slight favorite. That's mainly because we know it was widely used by American produced aircraft during this time period. US manufacturers started using the correct Sky color later, but well after the Buffaloes had been shipped off.

Except for the first three aircraft on the order, all Buffaloes were shipped directly to the Far East as painted by Brewster; Sky identification bands and spinner colors were applied by RAF Maintenance Units (they had the correct color by summer 1941) as were codes. For all squadrons except one, codes were in Medium Sea Grey. The exception was 488, which used Sky for the codes - that's why the 488 codes never cross the Sky fuselage band.

The Night port wing undersurface marking was another in-theater application and was pretty random - some aircraft within a given squadron had it, others didn't. The 'D' proportion (1-2-3) underwing roundels were a Brewster mistake, and corrected at the Brewster plant halfway through the production run to the correct 'A' (1-3-5) proportions.

Jim- you are a star- thank you thank you thank you! :speak_cool:

So tonights job is to fill the holes for the bombracks then! I might even go the Sky blue route- that and a black underwing would look pretty good :)

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I'm watching this thread with some interest as I have a (very) vague notion to do a Dutch one. The colour for the fuselage band is not mentioned on the instructions with the Aeromaster Buffalo sheet, hence this project is very close to the bottom of the pile. If anybody can help with this, I'd appreciate it - MentalGuru, I'm not trying to steal your thread.... just seemed appropriate to ask the question here.

Ian

Edited by Ian
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Yep..... but it's the fuselage band that I'm asking about.

Ian

Organizationally, ML-KNIL units were divided into Groepen (Groups, identified with a Roman numeral), usually with two or three Afdelingen (squadrons) of – for fighter units – about twelve aircraft each. From mid-1941, there were two Brewster-equipped squadrons in VliegerGroep V, consecutively numbered 1-Vl. G. V and 2-Vl. G. V. As a wartime measure in late 1941, an additional squadron, 3-Vl. G. V, was formed, as well as an operational training unit, 3-Vl. G. IV.

Each squadron had three patrouille (flights) of four aircraft each, and most of the patrouilles of 1- and 2-Vl. G. V had distinguishing markings (where known):

Afdelingen/Patrouille Fuselage Band Spinner

3rd Patrouille 1-Vl. G V Yellow None

1st Patrouille 2-Vl. G V White Red

2nd Patrouille 2-Vl. G V None White (not confirmed)

3rd Patrouille 2-Vl. G V Yellow Blue

Please note that there is still some controversy on the question of whether the spinner colors were actually applied. However, the above indicates what they were supposed to be, all the photos are in black and white, and red spinners are a nice touch.

In addition, all three Patrouilles of 2-Vl. G. V carried a squadron insignia on the forward fuselage – the ‘Java Rhinoceros’, on a yellow disc outlined in black.

Hope that helps - Jim Maas WKBS

Edited by jimmaas
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Quick one for you Jim-

I have been patiently altering the wingtip undersides to give them some "uplift," and now turning my attention as to what to do with the two "nav lights" on the outer upper surface of each wing. Now there is no mention of these in the instructions, to be either painted, or possibly removed- any pointers?

Thanks

Rich

Organizationally, ML-KNIL units were divided into Groepen (Groups, identified with a Roman numeral), usually with two or three Afdelingen (squadrons) of – for fighter units – about twelve aircraft each. From mid-1941, there were two Brewster-equipped squadrons in VliegerGroep V, consecutively numbered 1-Vl. G. V and 2-Vl. G. V. As a wartime measure in late 1941, an additional squadron, 3-Vl. G. V, was formed, as well as an operational training unit, 3-Vl. G. IV.

Each squadron had three patrouille (flights) of four aircraft each, and most of the patrouilles of 1- and 2-Vl. G. V had distinguishing markings (where known):

Afdelingen/Patrouille Fuselage Band Spinner

3rd Patrouille 1-Vl. G V Yellow None

1st Patrouille 2-Vl. G V White Red

2nd Patrouille 2-Vl. G V None White (not confirmed)

3rd Patrouille 2-Vl. G V Yellow Blue

Please note that there is still some controversy on the question of whether the spinner colors were actually applied. However, the above indicates what they were supposed to be, all the photos are in black and white, and red spinners are a nice touch.

In addition, all three Patrouilles of 2-Vl. G. V carried a squadron insignia on the forward fuselage – the ‘Java Rhinoceros’, on a yellow disc outlined in black.

Hope that helps - Jim Maas WKBS

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Quick one for you Jim-

I have been patiently altering the wingtip undersides to give them some "uplift," and now turning my attention as to what to do with the two "nav lights" on the outer upper surface of each wing. Now there is no mention of these in the instructions, to be either painted, or possibly removed- any pointers?

Thanks

Rich

Since you're doing an RAF Buffalo, eliminate them. They are formation lights and appear on the U.S. Navy F2A's, Finnish 239's, and Dutch 339C's, D's and -23's (and thus on the RAAF aircraft in Australia). They are not on the Belgian aircraft (including those taken on by Britain) nor on the 339E Buffaloes. Instead, the 339E's had an 'identification light' on the top and bottom of the fuselage. I can find the top one in photos - it's on the centerline, about four inches aft of the rear canopy. I can't find the one on the undersurface - as a guess, I'd locate it on the undersurface centerline directly opposite the top one.

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Since you're doing an RAF Buffalo, eliminate them. They are formation lights and appear on the U.S. Navy F2A's, Finnish 239's, and Dutch 339C's, D's and -23's (and thus on the RAAF aircraft in Australia). They are not on the Belgian aircraft (including those taken on by Britain) nor on the 339E Buffaloes. Instead, the 339E's had an 'identification light' on the top and bottom of the fuselage. I can find the top one in photos - it's on the centerline, about four inches aft of the rear canopy. I can't find the one on the undersurface - as a guess, I'd locate it on the undersurface centerline directly opposite the top one.

Thanks Jim- as this is an OOB build- its truly unfortunate I just slipped with the knife :innocent:

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