1/32 RB-51 "Red Baron" racing Mustang

[turnerdad]

I was having a look through the IPMS website today and came across some interesting comments on the forum, re ScaleModelWorld 07 (written in Dec!) and the judging of the competition. I've also read Spences' article in MIS which caused a little controversy and I know it's a little late to comment but I thought I would give my view as it directly affects this Red Baron build.

I do not want to become a competition junkie as I don't think that is the spirit in which I wish to build, but it can be a good incentive to push limits and skills. The best thing about the competition IMHO is that people really look at the models. But I think that Voodoo was perhaps one of those models that perhaps people didn't really know how to judge (on a personal level I mean). The one big criticism it recieved was regarding the panel lines, in that firstly I hadn't put them all on ( wings were bare) and that I had used decals. Firstly, in my competition ignorance I hadn't mentioned that the panel lines were filled in on the real thing ( as they are on many racers) to improve aerodynamic efficiency, so my fault there.

Secondly and the most relevant point here are the decals for panel lines. Originally I was going to scribe them all as I would normally do on any other kit, but because I was using automotive type paints (very dense and durable, but quite thick), and then placing some rather thick screen printed decals over that, I was worried that any panel lines would be completely obliterated. Indeed I experimented and the results were scrappy. The only way left to represent them crisply were decals. But as I want to push my skills a bit more, and taking onboard the Voodoo experience I am toying again with scribing, but with deep reservations. I may just have to accept that decals are really the only viable way to go. Unless I use my normal model paints/system. At the moment I'm not sure what I'm going to do, perhaps I'll just have to live with the compromise. Or I may build it as a completely traditional model, finishing off with coats of hand polished Klear with all the main markings sprayed through masks. I would appreciate some personal views on the finish from anyone who may have seen Voodoo. I'm sure the Baron would look lovely as a hand scribed, less glossy ( but more scale finish), but I do like the high gloss of Voodoo personally. What to do????

[keefr22]

I was having a look through the IPMS website today and came across some interesting comments on the forum, re ScaleModelWorld 07 (written in Dec!) and the judging of the competition. I've also read Spences' article in MIS which caused a little controversy and I know it's a little late to comment but I thought I would give my view as it directly affects this Red Baron build.

I do not want to become a competition junkie as I don't think that is the spirit in which I wish to build, but it can be a good incentive to push limits and skills. The best thing about the competition IMHO is that people really look at the models. But I think that Voodoo was perhaps one of those models that perhaps people didn't really know how to judge (on a personal level I mean). The one big criticism it recieved was regarding the panel lines, in that firstly I hadn't put them all on ( wings were bare) and that I had used decals. Firstly, in my competition ignorance I hadn't mentioned that the panel lines were filled in on the real thing ( as they are on many racers) to improve aerodynamic efficiency, so my fault there.

Secondly and the most relevant point here are the decals for panel lines. Originally I was going to scribe them all as I would normally do on any other kit, but because I was using automotive type paints (very dense and durable, but quite thick), and then placing some rather thick screen printed decals over that, I was worried that any panel lines would be completely obliterated. Indeed I experimented and the results were scrappy. The only way left to represent them crisply were decals. But as I want to push my skills a bit more, and taking onboard the Voodoo experience I am toying again with scribing, but with deep reservations. I may just have to accept that decals are really the only viable way to go. Unless I use my normal model paints/system. At the moment I'm not sure what I'm going to do, perhaps I'll just have to live with the compromise. Or I may build it as a completely traditional model, finishing off with coats of hand polished Klear with all the main markings sprayed through masks. I would appreciate some personal views on the finish from anyone who may have seen Voodoo. I'm sure the Baron would look lovely as a hand scribed, less glossy ( but more scale finish), but I do like the high gloss of Voodoo personally. What to do????

I was one of those that made comments that, in my opinion, the only thing that a judge could have picked up on that could cost such a brilliant model an award, were the panel lines - not the lack of them, I knew that the racers had all non essential ones filled, but the decalled ones. I really failed to see what else could have cost it a top award. However, IPMS judging has always been really weird to those looking in - a few years back there was a totally scratchbuilt model of the Titanic in the comp as she is now at the bottom of the Atlantic. You could hardly get near it all weekend as it was so good. I have honestly never seen such incredible weathering on a model. I, & everyone I spoke to, was as astounded that it didn't place anywhere in the comp as we were with Voodoo last year. So, I really don't know whether if you build Baron with "... a hand scribed, less glossy ( but more scale finish)" it would make any difference whatsoever. Having built car models for over 40 years, I really appreciated the skill & effort it took to get that finish on Voodoo (I wish I could get the same on my cars consistently!) - I wonder whether the people judging the aircraft comp actually did? After all, most aircraft models are finished in matt camouflage, & the techniques required in their finishing are totally different (& at the risk of bringing fire & brimstone down on myself, easier to achieve!! (I've also built aircraft models for over 40 years so feel qualified to say that!)) I think the only thing that I would suggest is that which is said so often - its your model so build it in the way that you want to - there will always be fellow modellers who will be astonished - both by your model & the judges decision!!

This is also the reason why I threw out the idea on the IPMS forum that there should be a competition award voted for by IPMS members - I'm pretty sure from talking to others & from comments overheard, that Voodoo would have had a pretty good chance of winning that. The comp sec. replied to my post that he thought it was an interesting idea, but whether anything will come of it, who knows?!

Sorry, lot of waffle there, don't know if it was of any value....!!

Keith

[desmojen]

If I was building it, I wouldn't change a thing

Apart from anything else, it wouldn't look as good next to Voodoo if you did it differently. I used to spray cars for a living, so I know exactly where you're coming from re. panel lines. The only way around it would probably be to rescribe after each coat, but then the laquer would still fill them in anyway.

I thought the decal panel lines were the most logical way to do it and very much suited the style of the model (and indeed the real thing). If the judges didn't agree then it was probably down to some sort of criteria on the judging sheets that wasn't met. That is purely speculation on my part as I am not, nor have I ever been, a judge.

The absolute last thing I would do in your shoes is bend my style to suit IPMS and the judges. As a display of modelling excellence, your Voodoo was right up there with the best models in the show, and better than most. If it can't be pigeon holed well enough to get a prize then I see that as a failing of the system, not of you.

Jen.

[turnerdad]

Thanks for the reply Keith. If I build RB in the same way that I built Voodoo I know I will get a similar result, though this year I will hand polish the Lacquer to remove that annoying build up you get along edges etc. Also, I have to admit that my primary interest is in military stuff, proper matt type workhorses, and this will probably be my last racer, at least for the forseable future. Personally I would rather hand scribe, Klear etc but I just don't know if I've got the confidence to go down that route-I would have to scribe into very hard resin, car body filler etc, and Klear is OK but it's not the neatest stuff to chuck on a model, and I know I'd have to put LOADS on to enable a hand polish with confidence. But my biggest concern is that I don't want any raised decal edges etc that stick out like a sore thumb on gloss models as I'm sure you know. Do I really go for it, throw in all my skill and understanding and hope for the best, or take the safer route knowing that I'll be judged accordingly. Or should I chuck it in, and build a Phantom?

[Dr_Fester]

If the judges didn't even realise that racers have filled wing panels then they are no experts, surely? Seems a weak excuse and the model should be judged on its overall appearance and build quality, which Voodoo was on another level. Taking into account this was no OTB build and much work altering the airframe from standard then my vote would certainly have gone for Voodoo at SMW07.

My view would be to repeat the beautiful finish you achieved on Voodoo including the dark grey panel line decals and the deep polish of the finish.

BTW Baron is looking real sweet Nick

Cheers

Doc

[keefr22]

Or should I chuck it in, and build a Phantom?

Absolutely not!! The comp tables will be full of them & we need a standout model to look at!!

I don't feel there is an absolute answer to "Do I really go for it, throw in all my skill and understanding and hope for the best, or take the safer route knowing that I'll be judged accordingly." I guess it comes down to what you are really aiming for - do you want to win the comp or build the best model that you can? The reason that neither myself or any of my club mates enter comps is that we basically don't give two hoots about what a competition judge would think of our models, so we do what we like in the way that we are happy with to get the best model our abilities allow. We just can't be bothered with comps, basically because of the vagaries & inconsistencies in judges decisions. And if there's a different judge on the class you are in this year that understands the skill & effort that you put into RB if you build it in the same style as Voodoo you could well get gold. If it's the same one (or ones, I don't know if its a team effort?) as last year, you may get nothing again. And whilst I know there are apparently set guidelines & standards that judges are supposed to adhere to, they are only human after all, each with their own likes, dislikes & dare I suggest jealousies (is that a word??!!) that might prevent them from awarding the rightful award to a model they know they couldn't build?? I don't think that compromising your build to win a comp is necessarily the way to go - but as I say I don't enter or judge competitions so am probably not best placed to comment!

Speaking purely selfishly, I want to see Red Baron built to the same awe-inspiring standard as Voodoo. If because of technicalities in the build process that means you have to use decal panel lines, so be it. And if the judges don't like it & you don't get the deserved award then we'll all shake our heads in resigned disbelief & mutter about judges not having a clue as to what they are doing!!

Good luck

Keith

[turnerdad]

Thanks Jen, I really appreciate your comments. I know it's not about winning ( the guy who won with his really rather lovely Israeli Skyhawk last year put his medal round his daughters neck which left me all warm inside) but I have been a little concerned about people regarding these builds more as toys rather than proper models. You are my peers, and I will treat your comments with respect, so listening to you, I think I will make my decision based on on what I myself want to build, knowing (from what I've read here) that the model will be treated with respect by the people that I want to show it too, and whose opinions I respect. I will almost certainly build it in the same way now I feel, although I know it most probably won't win anything. That's cool, this hobby is about fun, so I'll just get on and finish it. I'll shutup now. Thanks again though one and all.

[turnerdad]

And Fes, and Keith, same as Voodoo it is then.

[keefr22]

And Fes, and Keith, same as Voodoo it is then.

keef

[Dr_Fester]

And Fes, and Keith, same as Voodoo it is then.

Horraaa

[turnerdad]

Things are coming along. I spent some time on Sunday, and all day today (Monday) on the Baron and he is taking shape. First I built up the carb intake, which is situated on top of the cowling. I wanted it to have some depth to the intake trunking, and as this will all have to be moulded I chose to split the intake roughly half way along it's length (back from the nose), and cast the front section as on piece. eliminating any unsightly seams. Hopefully the photos will explain what I mean. There will still be some filling required later, but it should be minimal and easy to hide.

Then I dealt with the exhaust area, and carved a "negative" exhaust shape out of acrylic sheet, dead easy, I found some in my spares box, thinned it down a little and profiled the front and back. I then jigged up the fuselage to allow me to mark out where I should add this area. Bare in mind, pretty much all shapes that I used were taken from my plans, and (mostly) double sided onto the relevant material.

I made a small jig to hold the exhaust pattern so it would go in true on both sides of the fuselage. sprayed it in release agent, and bedded it. The base is left over from Voodoo last year and has been sitting in my workshop for a year and has been covered in crap so it is mucky, but fine for my purposes.

When the filler was dry I sanded it back to leave a nice exhausty shape type area(if you catch my drift)

I then returned to the spinner, and carved the shapes (which are not circles, or rectangles, they have strange angles) where the props enter the spinner, then bedded them.

When the filler was dry, I stuck the lot in my cordless drill and flatted the filler back.

Once this was done to satisfaction, I generally tidied up the whole fuselage, re-profiled the wing root area and primed with Halfords grey primer.

A long way to go, have to build new exhaust stacks, wheels and props before tackling the cockpit and wings.

Cheers all.

Edited August 11, 2008 by turnerdad

[Jesse1]

The Voodoo is breathtaking, can't wait to see this one.

Jesse

[turnerdad]

Thanks Jesse, really planning to push my skills with this one. What an airplane!!

[keefr22]

Thanks Jesse, really planning to push my skills with this one. What an airplane!!

And thanks for sharing those skills with us! I just love to watch true craftsmen at work, & there is some absolutely stunning work going on here! I'm really enjoying watching what I'm sure will be another masterpiece taking shape!

Cheers

Keef

[turnerdad]

And thanks for sharing those skills with us! I just love to watch true craftsmen at work, & there is some absolutely stunning work going on here! I'm really enjoying watching what I'm sure will be another masterpiece taking shape!

Cheers

Keef

Tar Keef, wouldn't go so far as "true craftsman", more bodger and fettler! May have a small surprise with this build but I can say no more, not until the standard build is finished. Hopefully it will answer any panel line and scale finish doubts! ( but only at experimentation stage right now!). Damn I said too much.

[keefr22]

Tar Keef, wouldn't go so far as "true craftsman", more bodger and fettler!

Well, I wish I could bodge & fettle that well.....!!!

[Tedfellows]

Ditto, cracking piece of work!

[Mike]

Proper scratch-building

[general melchett]

That looks very promising Tdad, Just love getting back to basics !!. Looking forward to seeing end result. Looks like we share the same affliction...just can't help cutting up a perfectly good kit and hopefully turning it into something better and unique

Must agree , Voodoo was something to behold, absolute peach.

Great job,

Andy

[AnonymousFY21]

Don't know how I missed this thread.

Truly remarkable modelling.

You have a god given talent Turnerdad, cos with no amount of practice could I ever hope to attain this level of craftsmanship.

rich

[turnerdad]

Oh please I'm blushing. Feel a bit of a fraud really, compared to some modellers out there whose work is TRULY awesome, something for me to aim for. Everything I build I do in memory of my son Jake so I will at least put my all into it.

Next milestone is to get the fuselage finished, which means lots of cockpit work and general refining of the work I've done already, then at least I can give it to my casting guru buddy who will hopefully turn it around quickly. Then I can get the props, new wheels, wing tips and exhausts done. And that should be that. Oh, I have to start pestering my transfer guru buddy too, as I tend to work with him quite closely, so will have to arrange spare evenings/beer etc. Already starting to think about bases etc. I would like to put it on a mirror/tarmac section, though not too sure about painting on glass.

Next update shortly...

[martin_sam_2000]

This is looking great. I would never had the patience to build somehting like this. This will be one swett @ss plane when it is done.

Sean

[Dr_Fester]

May have a small surprise with this build but I can say no more, not until the standard build is finished. Hopefully it will answer any panel line and scale finish doubts! ( but only at experimentation stage right now!). Damn I said too much.

[The Hooded Claw]

Thanks for the reply Keith. If I build RB in the same way that I built Voodoo I know I will get a similar result, though this year I will hand polish the Lacquer to remove that annoying build up you get along edges etc. Also, I have to admit that my primary interest is in military stuff, proper matt type workhorses, and this will probably be my last racer, at least for the forseable future. Personally I would rather hand scribe, Klear etc but I just don't know if I've got the confidence to go down that route-I would have to scribe into very hard resin, car body filler etc, and Klear is OK but it's not the neatest stuff to chuck on a model, and I know I'd have to put LOADS on to enable a hand polish with confidence. But my biggest concern is that I don't want any raised decal edges etc that stick out like a sore thumb on gloss models as I'm sure you know. Do I really go for it, throw in all my skill and understanding and hope for the best, or take the safer route knowing that I'll be judged accordingly. Or should I chuck it in, and build a Phantom?

Don't change your style just for IPMS (this from a nearly thirty year member).

Also have you thought of using Automotive Clear Coats for you model. You could try something from www.hiroboy.com for instance. Have a look at his Zero Paints range.

THC

[turnerdad]

Don't change your style just for IPMS (this from a nearly thirty year member).

Also have you thought of using Automotive Clear Coats for you model. You could try something from www.hiroboy.com for instance. Have a look at his Zero Paints range.

THC

Good idea. I was thinking of tapping the car experts, infact I think it would make sense to start a new topic for the best "kit" gloss coat, as I've seen some blinding build here. Cheers for that HC.