RAF Lightnings over Africa (profiles)

[keefr22]

F.3 wasn't the official designation?

I thought it was F-4J(uk).

What was it then?

F-4J(UK) was the correct designation. F3 wasn't an official designation. Sorry, I should have cropped the quote better!

keef

[keefr22]

Hi Antoine,

in this "What if?" story the Falklands War never happens, just as well, so there would have been no need to order the F-4J(UK) from the U.S. Plus the U.S. in my story is neutral so wouldn't of supplied them anyway. The U.S. will however supply the EA-6B Prowlers as they are deemed "defensive" aircraft as opposed to a "Fighter" which could only be classified as 'offensive' in nature. Plus in my story many more FGR.s Phantoms were produced than actually were due to the fact of the U.S. changing its ways, plus South Africa will be producing its own FGR.2's and possibly Australia too.

Cheers

Richard.

So, did we steal the plans to the FGR Tooms (like the Israeli's with the Mirage!) then Richard? Otherwise why did the US supply us with the majority of the airframes in order to produce those extra FGR's?? I think a little espionage certainly wouldn't go amiss.....!!

Keef

[hatchet]

So, did we steal the plans to the FGR Tooms (like the Israeli's with the Mirage!) then Richard? Otherwise why did the US supply us with the majority of the airframes in order to produce those extra FGR's?? I think a little espionage certainly wouldn't go amiss.....!!

Keef

Maybe have them licence built by Hawker, then when the US ask you to please refrain from building anymore show'em two fingers?

[Gekko_1]

So, did we steal the plans to the FGR Tooms (like the Israeli's with the Mirage!) then Richard? Otherwise why did the US supply us with the majority of the airframes in order to produce those extra FGR's?? I think a little espionage certainly wouldn't go amiss.....!!

Keef

Naah, nothing that 'creative'.

The UK ordered 143 airframes in 1964. 50 went to the Royal Navy, the other 93 to the RAF. In the same deal 14 were also bought by both South Africa and Rhodesia. The Royal Australian Air Force ordered 24 for themselves.

America's neutrality does not begin until 1975, so the UK, South Africa, Rhodesia and Australia already had their FGR.2's and enough spares to keep them going for many years.

There; I think that has got me out of the s***e!

Cheers

Richard.

[Jabba]

Possibly St Athan in South Wales

Phantom majors were carried out at that wonderful place in S Wales, and so quite possibly have carried out the modifications. We did have a civilian works team from British wasteofspace whilst I was at the camp, so there is another option given that a civilian contractor may have been brought in.

[keefr22]

We did have a civilian works team from British wasteofspace whilst I was at the camp, so there is another option given that a civilian contractor may have been brought in.

Possibly the same bunch that wrecked the wing boxes of that batch of Tornado F3's .....

[damian]

Damn Richard this is getting so awesome it might implode and form a new sun of awesomness!

D

[bexwh773]

Richard,

Still bloody rivetting story so far my friend, dont stop now

If it helps, my last Whiffy Phantom was an RF-4C fitted with Speys allocated to 31 Sqn. I only needed to modify their Sqn history slightly as they went from PR Canberras in 1971 to Phantoms, and instead of them getting FG1 / FGR2 I gave them the RF-4 renamed as PR-4 (as the sideinders were for defence only I cheated with the designation) Why did I choose 31 Sqn? They had vast low level PR knowledge from working with Canberras and it seemed a shame to waste those skills.

Also, Spike7451 is working on a PR6, Grumman Intruder modded out as an RAF PR bird following on from my 13 Sqn GRS6E Intruder if thats any help?

ATB

Bex

[Gekko_1]

I'm going to add in to the story at some point that Sweden sells Denmark a Squadron of their Drakens so that Denmark can add an Air Defence element to their contribution. The current Drakens, as Hatchet informed me, do not have radar so would have only been used in ground attack with a Sidewinder capability.

So, in 1980-83 what long range air to air missile would have been available that could enable the Coalition Forces to take-on the Foxbat threat?

Also could the Canadian Voodoo be modified to carry Sidewinder and Sparrow missiles? Since America has become neutral the F/A-18 program would have been scrapped so countries like Australia and Canada that chose the Hornet as a replacement would have had to soldier-on with what they had until a suitable replacement was found.

Cheers

Richard.

[Antoine]

What about some Portuguese aircraft.

They were quite heavily involved in their ex-colonies in Africa, till 1974 (With T-6, G-91, Alouette, etc...).

They could be part of the story as well.

What do you think?

[hatchet]

I'm going to add in to the story at some point that Sweden sells Denmark a Squadron of their Drakens so that Denmark can add an Air Defence element to their contribution. The current Drakens, as Hatchet informed me, do not have radar so would have only been used in ground attack with a Sidewinder capability.

Cool! Our Drakens did have a secondary (tertiary?) tasking as daytime VFR air defence, but in an environment with a BVR threat that would have been slightly suicidal.

So, in 1980-83 what long range air to air missile would have been available that could enable the Coalition Forces to take-on the Foxbat threat?

Sky Flash would just about have made it prior to the US circling wagons. Other than that, maybe the Matra Super 530.

Also could the Canadian Voodoo be modified to carry Sidewinder and Sparrow missiles? Since America has become neutral the F/A-18 program would have been scrapped so countries like Australia and Canada that chose the Hornet as a replacement would have had to soldier-on with what they had until a suitable replacement was found.

The problem for the Voodoo in that respect, would be that it only had two pylons. I guess a couple could be added underwing for Sidewinders, with the underbody ones carrying Sparrow/Sky Flash/Supers. With the "effectiveness" of the Falcon missile, even just two BVR AAMs on the existing pylons would be an improvement!¹ Maybe a gunpack could be installed in the Falcon bay. Sweden might be willing (probably, if we could get Fillip/Johan Drakens) to sell the JaktViggens PS-46/A radar to Canada to upgrade the Voodoo. That was made to guide SARH BVR missiles, in Swedens case Sky Flash.

Note 1: Apparently, the Falcons were usually launched as one SARH and one IR. With a range in the region of 10km, 2 Sky Flash would still give 2 shots, with nearly 5 times the range. Plus, the Falcons most likely would have missed anyway.

[Gekko_1]

What about some Portuguese aircraft.

They were quite heavily involved in their ex-colonies in Africa, till 1974 (With T-6, G-91, Alouette, etc...).

They could be part of the story as well.

What do you think?

Hi Antoine,

I want to keep things contained to the UK, Commonwealth and Denmark for now. Because of the U.S. pulling out of NATO the Europeans will be trying to get France to help form essentially what we now know as the European Union. None of the core European countries will want to get involved in the African conflict with a more pressing clear and present danger on the East/West German border. Especially with Foxbats testing European response times!

Cheers

Richard.

[Gekko_1]

Ivan Novikov was a 58 year old man living in a very small village named Eglwys-Brewis, just next to St Athan in the Vale of Glamorgan, southern Wales. He’d lived there for almost thirty three years. The locals knew him as plain old Ivan. A gentle man, who mostly kept to himself. It was said that he was a Ukrainian Jew who had settled in a sleepy Welsh village to live out the rest of his life quietly without persecution. He could often be seen riding his old bicycle about the village and sometimes on the country roads. He was also known as a bird watcher, the feathered kind that is! He always had his trusty old Russian binoculars with him.

As Ivan was peddling along this fine sunny morning he could hear the very familiar sound of a pair of Rolls-Royce Spey engines coming to life. Ivan was quite interested in what was going-on at nearby RAF St Athan. After all, that was his job, his ‘real’ job! Ivan worked for the KGB. He had been sent to England all those years ago to help keep an eye on things. His cover was perfect, nobody had suspected a thing. He had made casual friends with some local plane spotters. They would always tell him of new things that they had noticed. Two young lads in particular were quite keen about Fighter aircraft and couldn’t quite believe their luck with the flurry of activity that had been going on at St Athan lately.

Peter and Paul were very excited this day as the RAF Phantom came roaring down the runway. They knew something was different about it, but it wasn’t until it screamed past them that they could truly see just how unique this Phantom was. It was an FGR.4 Phantom. The new and modified parts could easily be seen as they were in a yellow/green colour. It was basically an FGR.2 Phantom, but with the same elongated nose and fin tip of an American F-4G Wild Weasel. Something else was interesting about this Phantom too, it was carrying missiles! But these missiles were quite big, bigger than Sidewinders or Sparrows. They were British Aerospace AGM-78 ‘Standard’ SAM killing missiles! The boys were ecstatic, as ecstatic as any twelve year old could be seeing such a rare site as this.

Peter and Paul had been trying to keep up with developments in the long distant war down in mysterious Africa. They knew of most of the air to air engagements that had happened down there and were blown away when the local aviation magazines published the first full colour photographs of a couple of the RAF Lightnings that were operating there. The macabre smiling pumpkin grin on the nose really appealed to the boys and both had built and painted their Matchbox BAC Lightning F. Mk. 2A/6 kits as best they could to mimic the strange camouflage schemes and markings. They’d then battle it out in Peter’s back yard. Bombing enemy tanks and shooting down Russian bombers. Both also had Matchbox FGR.2 Phantom kits, but as they weren’t operating down in Africa, had put off building them. But now! Oh wow! To see this Phantom and guessing quite accurately that it would soon be flying under an African sun was more than the boys could take! As soon as they saw Ivan coming towards them they ran off to meet him to tell him about what they had just seen.

Ivan was acting very casual about the whole thing, doing a lot of laughing and play acting, mimicking the excited movements of the two boys. Ivan asked them in a jovial humored manner what it was that the boys had seen. They explained in great detail and Ivan knew that they would have more to add to what he had just seen himself, and he wasn’t disappointed. The boys had been speaking to some of the RAF personnel in town and they had told the boys of the new Phantoms that had arrived and the others that would soon be joining them. They also told the boys how the RAF was going to give it to the Soviets with all these new and fantastic weapons that they were getting ready to put into operational service. Ivan was most impressed with what his two over excited young friends had to tell him. His bosses at KGB headquarters would also find this information interesting!

The same tale was being played out at Cambridge Airport, Abingdon in Oxfordshire, A&AEE (Aircraft & Armament Evaluation Establishment) Boscombe Down and at the Royal Aerospace Establishment at Bedford. Plane spotters, model aircraft fanatics and modern aviation enthusiasts were a minefield of useful information to the various KGB operatives put into place. In fact the Soviets couldn’t believe just how much information they were able to gather! If they needed any technical information or specific details it was left to the more specialised operatives to acquire, using more ‘human’ traits to attain. A pretty blond, or rather attractive young man, loose with her or his sexual morals, was able to find out much information with the addition of sexual favors and a little alcohol to smooth the way!

The modification to the Vulcan fleet was of great interest to the Soviets. They had a pretty good idea how they were going to be used, but were still keen to see them operationally in Burkina Faso. The Phantom and Lightning modifications were of little concern to the Soviets, they had learnt much during the Vietnam War and were quite confident they could overcome what little advantage the newly modified Phantoms could throw at them.

It was the TSR.2 Eagles that most interested the Soviets. There were reports that some were being re-painted in Cyprus and even reports that some were in Israel! The Soviets knew where twenty three of the forty two operational Eagles were, but still hadn’t been able to track down the remaining nineteen examples!

Peter and Paul nearly passed out with excitement when on one misty September morning two TSR.2 Eagles roared down the runway at St Athan! The Penthouse magazine that Paul had found abandoned near his school a week ago was pretty good, but this was better! Plus it was Saturday! No school! They had their sandwiches packed and were all set for their day near St Athan’s runway. The stunned expletives coming out of Peter’s mouth could not even be heard by Paul as the two Eagles flashed past and their eyes became as big as saucers as they saw that the two Eagles didn’t climb up to the normal flying altitude, but kept low, very low in fact, then broke right and headed for the Bristol Channel. Neither boy could talk, their mouths were open and a look of shock was upon their faces. To see the Phantoms that been flying from St Athan lately was one thing, but to see these machines was something else again! Plus Matchbox had just announced in the latest copy of Scale Aircraft Modelling that they were soon to release a kit of the jet in 72nd scale!

“Did you see the camo on them sweethearts!” shouted Peter.

“Oh f*** me that was too much!” screamed Paul.

More was to come! Twenty minutes later, out of one of the newly built hangers at St Athan came another two Eagles. These two were also painted in the Burkina camouflage scheme and both were carrying live Bluewater missiles and Sidewinders! Peter had to literally sit down and have a drink after that. Every dream he had ever had had just come true in this one day, every dream except for the one he had about the centerfold in his recently acquired Penthouse magazine that was! But that was another story. Right here, right now there was jets! Real as life, loud smelly jets! Not long after the departure of the second pair of Eagles the first pair returned. The boys knew that by the direction the windsock that the Eagles would land at the far end of the runway and have to turn and taxi past them. This they did and neither boy could quite believe it when the pilots waved at them as they lumbered past in their fierce looking Fighter Bombers. Paul had a lump in his throat, Peter was just beside himself. He so wanted to be a pilot, but photographing naked women seemed like a pretty good job too! Ah decisions, decisions!

The boys tucked into their lunch as they awaited the return of the second pair of Eagles. Talk was of jets, models and that Penthouse magazine. Life was good! Not long after their lunch the two Eagles returned. But something was immediately noticeable. The Bluewater missiles were gone, as were the Sidewinders!

“Wow it must have been a live fire mission” exclaimed Peter, more excited than he could ever imagine himself being. Of course, Peter would be even more excited five years from now, when with his future girlfriend Mary, he would have his own live fire mission!

“No bullshit they fired Bluewater AND Sidwinders! No f****** way! Oh they are so going to war! The Soviets don’t stand a chance!” stated Paul adamantly.

But what the boys had seen up to that point was nothing compared to what they were about to see coming out of the new hanger! This time there were four Eagles and they were painted in what could only be called a mind blowing desert camouflage scheme! Pale green, desert sand and a very dark grey in a jigsaw like pattern. Wow! The boys had never seen ANYTHING like it. But! As the Eagles hurtled past the gob smacked boys, they both noticed the Kangaroo roundels on the side! They were Aussie Eagles!!!!!!!!!!!! And they all had the pumpkin grin on their noses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

“No f****** WAY!” said Peter as the last of the Australian Eagles sped out to sea at fifty feet off the ground!

“Oh man which one am I going to do first? An RAF one or one of them Aussie birds?” Stated Paul matter of factly.

Peter then got caught up in the dilemma himself! Some serious model planning now needed to be discussed. Both boys had enough pocket money saved up to buy the new Matchbox kit of the TSR.2 Eagle when it was released, but neither had enough to buy a second kit! The next hour was spent deciding who was going to do an Aussie Eagle and who was going to do the RAF one. The discussion was earnest and busy. By the time the Australian Eagles returned nothing had been decided.

But then! As the last Australian Eagle taxied past, the pilot quickly threw the throttle forward and back making the nose rise up a little as if the Eagle was nodding. He and the bombardier then gave the boys a big wave.

“Well that settles that then!” said Peter.

“Yep, me too, its that one, A35-06!” said Paul noting its serial number.

As the day faded into evening the two boys walked back home full of talk of Matchbox kits, TSR.2 Fighter Bombers and whose turn it would be next to borrow the Penthouse magazine! Life surly couldn’t get better than this! Oh happy days!

Richard.

[AnonymousDFB1]

Cool way of bringing some detail into the story Richard.

[keefr22]

Peter, Paul.....& Mary??!! Oh dear!!!!

Well, that takes me back!! I was actually flying Bulldogs with the University of Wales Air Squadron from St Athan when the Tooms used to come in for deep maintenance. And later, when my son was small, I often used to take him up to Saints to watch the Shars do their test flights after conversion to F/A2's. His favourites were always the Tonkas though, as they would invariably do an airfield beat up as they departed back to base after being released from maintenance. Never saw any TSR2 Eagles though, unfortunately......!!!

Great stuff Richard, thanks for taking me back in time!! Happy days....!!!

Keep 'em coming!

Keef

[bexwh773]

This is really keeping us on the edges of our seats Richard, its a helluva story

Bex

[hatchet]

Bloody hell Richard!

[Tiger41]

Bravo Richard well done i like that part the best the kgb part was cool looking foward to the profiles

[Gekko_1]

Guys, I'd appreciate some feedback regarding what you'd like to see content wise in this story.

Do you mind that I go into the personal lives of the characters in this story, or would you prefer it to be more hardware and battle details?

Would battle maps be of any use to you?

I know some of you are keen to see more profiles, and they will appear in time, its just that it takes a lot of preparation to get a new profile up and running and time is a bit scarce for me at present. I have just been given a promotion at work and I am now learning how to manage (as 2IC) about 20 staff and all the goings-on behind the scene in a busy supermarket. Its a fun place to work though! Lots of good ideas for stories abound in an environment like that!

Regards

Richard.

[bexwh773]

Richard,

My personal view is you can ease back on some of the profiles for a while, and go balls out with the story. Youve gone into so much detail with the characters it would be a shame to waste that now, same goes for the hardware. With the maps, that would be a great idea as to give us some idea of a location, especially as you recently said about the Migs hiding around the border areas it would give some idea of whats going on, where and when.

Thank you for sharing your amazing story with us, please keep up the excellent work

HTH

Bex

[Gekko_1]

Richard,

My personal view is you can ease back on some of the profiles for a while, and go balls out with the story. Youve gone into so much detail with the characters it would be a shame to waste that now, same goes for the hardware. With the maps, that would be a great idea as to give us some idea of a location, especially as you recently said about the Migs hiding around the border areas it would give some idea of whats going on, where and when.

Thank you for sharing your amazing story with us, please keep up the excellent work

HTH

Bex

Thanks for taking the time to reply Bex, much appreciated. Your reply does help, helps a lot actually as I really don't know what people are wanting or hoping for, so I hope I can get a few more replies to get a better idea of where to take this.

Yes, I think some maps will help a lot too, for me as well! This story has the potential to get quite big before it gets to its end phase and I think a few maps will definitely help, especially as I'm talking about such a far off remote part of the world most people aren't very familiar with.

Cheers Bex!

Now come on you lot, some more opinions please!

Cheers

Richard.

[bexwh773]

Now come on you lot, some more opinions please!

Cheers

Richard.

Come on Gang, Richards kept us entralled and sat on the edges of our seats so far, so dont let him walk away from it now, GET TYPING

Bex

[Gekko_1]

I can only echo what Bex said.

Fantastic story.

Have you added the later profiles in a different way? I have been collecting the profiles and the story in its own little folder but I can't get the later profiles the same size as the early ones. it is probably cos I is fick!

Hi Rory,

I've uploaded everything the same. All from my Photobucket account. Let me know which profiles your having a problem with and I'll see what I can do my end to fix the problem.

Thanks for your input mate, it does help.

Cheers

Richard.

[Shiloh]

Just spent a rather enjoyable 1/2 hour reading this through right from the start. Must echo what all the rest are saying, awesome Whif. Would nearly convert me to doing planes again. I would second what Bex has said.

Sean

Edited September 3, 2008 by Shiloh

[Gekko_1]

Who ever it was who was thinking of doing decal sheets for these aircraft PLEASE put me down for a set of 1/72 and 1/48 .

Ah yes, that would be me Rory. There's another "What if?" sheet that I'll be bringing out for the FGR.2, F-4J, F-4S and F-4E Phantom first, depending on how successful that is the decal sheet(s) for this story will follow.

Cheers

Richard.