Don McIntyre Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 One of those silly questions that's bugged me for years. As an example, let's say I've got a WW-2 Brtish naval aircraft, should I label it as an "FAA" aircraft or "RN" aircraft? I understand that many RN aircraft were actually flown by RAF pilots (and vice-versa during the BoB). Was FAA considered part of the RAF, and then later in the war became "RN" aircraft? I'm sooooo confused… Expiring minds want to know… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gengriz Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 (edited) The current RN air branch do like to be known (semi officially) as "The Fleet Air Arm", although they are more often described as WAFUs - this is a family forum so I won't elaborate. However the origins of the FAA title actually go back to the 1930s, when Naval Aviation was controlled/provided by the RAF, when the maritime element became known as the "Fleet Air Arm of the Royal Air Force" The seagoing element of the Fleet Air Arm (incuding its personnel, aircraft and shore bases) was passed back to the RN just before WW2 - so during the early war you did sometimes see a mix of RN & RAF personnel and uniforms - however by mid war and up until the present any RAF person flying an RN aircraft was doing a temporary exchange tour. The FAA's aircraft were entirely owned (xmt Lend Lease) and operated by the RN, with pilots who were almost entirely RN (or RM) Officers or NCOs (or from Commonwealth Navies). So in essence, FAA or RN Aircraft is correct for anything from 1939 onwards. Nowadays it is slightly more complicated, at least on the surface. Naval aircraft are all still owned (i.e paid for) by the RN. However, Support Helicopters (the Royal Marines' Lynx & RN's Sea King HC4s), whilst still owned and flown by the RN (which includes a few RM pilots), come under the operational control of Land Command (the same is true of the RAF's Pumas and Chinooks). Attack aircraft (Harrier GR7/9) operate within the joint RN-RAF Joint Force Harrier; the Naval Strike Wing (nominally 800 & 801 Sqns) are manned predominantly by RN pilots (with a few RAF thrown in). The 2 RAF Harrier Sqns are manned predominantly by RAF pilots (with a few RN thrown in). ASW aircraft (Lynx/Merlin) are entirely under RN control, but even here you may see the odd RAF or Army pilot on exchange. Just as historical note of interest, many RAF Sqns in the 200 range were formerly Royal Naval Air Service squadrons - e.g. before 1918, 201 Sqn was No1 Naval Squadron. Equally, no 18 Group (RAF Maritime/Coastal Command) was the only part of the RAF Fleet Air Arm that did not transfer back to the RN before WW2. Edited March 8, 2008 by gengriz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miggers Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Flt Lt Murdo Macleod was an RAF exchange pilot. He performed the last British fixed wing launch from the last British fixed wing carrier back in 1978(Phantom "007" from the waist cat I believe) Also don't forget "Wavy Navy" types from the RNVR. But basically it's as gengriz has described it.FAA and RN are pretty much one and the same thing. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thx6667 Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I've always thought of it as the Fleet Air Arm of the Royal Navy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_c Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 (edited) as a RAF rigger working with the Royal Navy, i find this quite interesting. the Fleet Air Arm like to consider themselves as seperate from the sea going 'fish heads' although officially, they are the same. As for the jointery going on at the moment, it's everywhere. at one point a few years back, you could have easily changed RNAS Culdrose to RAF Culdrose as the number of RAF junior ranks based there almost outnumbered the naval ratings. even at sea, there is still an RAF presence on most FAA squadrons and a majority of the engineering 'bays' are RN run but mainly RAF manned. Yeovilton is the same. it all came from the fact that a few years back, the Navy were short of technicians and the RAF were very over bourne (due to the Typhoon being late into service), so as whole RAF courses passed out of trade training, they were posted straight into Navy slots. the Navy has started to catch up now and many of the RAF are starting to be posted back onto RAF units (much to their joy!) its working the other way around aswell, where quite a few Merlin qualified Navy personell have been posted to 28/78sqn at Benson who are crying out for manpower. i myself am at Culdrose as part of Benson's manpower in a proper RAF post as part of the Merlin Depth Maintenance Facility although St.Mawgan is regarded as my parent unit. its all very confusing, especially when it comes to sorting admin...... Edited March 9, 2008 by paul_c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 All FAA are RN, not all RN (some say "boat drivers") are FAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windy Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Being in the Fleet Air Arm as a helicopter engineer on the mighty Seaking HC.4 it is a amazing to see that the RAF engineers that I have worked with have spent more time at sea than the FAA own engineers. On my recent deployment to Kandahar I meet up with some of the Chinook engineers from the RAF who I was deployed with during OP Telic 2003 and I was shocked to hear how much 'sea time' they have done. In the Commando Helicopter Force's defense we are so busy on land based operations doing the tasks that the RAF won't/can't do there has to be a point where the RAF has to help out at sea. But with nearly all future operations being land based it will not be long before we see an combined air wing and the FAA being combined with the RAF as this would say the MOD money and manpower although I can't seeing it work out. Windy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miggers Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 How do the "Senior Service" types look on you Brylcreem Boys prowling about Her Majesty's ships and shore stations?? I've never been in the Forces myself(I've quite a few mates that have),but I know that there used to be a fair bit of inter-service rivalry at one time of day. I'm an FAA modeller and fan so I can't say that I'm over keen on the jointery myself either. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyWAFU Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 I'm a WAFU who is serving on Royal Navy's Premiere Lynx Squadron and when I went to sea on the back of horrible type 42 Destroyer we were a breed apart from ther General service who have never heard of 15 hour days in one go, and thought that the aircraft looked after itself with no help from human hands, we were professional and a classic example of the fish heads we worked with one of them was asked what kind magazines we had onboard he stopped and thought two minutes and replied FHM, Maxim and Nuts. We had several poeople onboard who didn't nowwhere the Falklands were in the world despite patrolling them for 8 weeks at the time. We also didn't work with and RAF personnel at the time on our flight, there was once a shortfall on our personnel in the FAA but thanks to our friendly crabs who were having delays with the eurofighter there was alot of trained crabs with no where to go and they then sent them onto us in the FAA. We've recently had a RAF SAC leave our squadron saying he'll never see the Navy again only to goto a Harrier squadron which is going onto an aircraft carrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_c Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 How do the "Senior Service" types look on you Brylcreem Boys prowling about Her Majesty's ships and shore stations??I've never been in the Forces myself(I've quite a few mates that have),but I know that there used to be a fair bit of inter-service rivalry at one time of day. I'm an FAA modeller and fan so I can't say that I'm over keen on the jointery myself either. Mark they treat us pretty good really. my flight test shift of 10 guys is a mixture of RAF, FAA and SERCO (mainly ex-navy) but we look past the different coverall colours and just crack on with the job. there's plenty of banter, obviously, but its all very good natured and due to our differing standards of training, we are always helping each other out. the most frustrating problem ive found is that RAF SAC(T)'s are treated the same as Navy AEM's and AET's which means we are not trusted to do the more technical jobs that on a RAF unit would be second nature to us. Navy aircraft techs don't get the same standard of engineering training as us untill they become NCO's unfortunately. it does mean that we earn more than the Navy lads though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousFO98 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 The inter-service rivalry is bemusing to me as an outsider. I know a lad in the ATC had only been in 5 minutes before abusing the "senior" sevice cadets. Boy it starts early. I know this probably seems like a stupid question but, aren't they supposed to be "on the same side"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_c Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 (edited) The inter-service rivalry is bemusing to me as an outsider. I know a lad in the ATC had only been in 5 minutes before abusing the "senior" sevice cadets. Boy it starts early.I know this probably seems like a stupid question but, aren't they supposed to be "on the same side"? lol, it's all good banter mate and keeps morale high when the chips are down. some of my best mates in work are FAA guys. no matter what service you are in, everyone has the same sense of 'humour'! Edited July 29, 2008 by paul_c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggis Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 I'm a WAFU who is serving on Royal Navy's Premiere Lynx Squadron I assume you mean 815 squadron. If so which flight are you serving with at the moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 In the begining the Navy and Army had their own experiments with flying. Then, the Royal Flying Corps (RFC) of the Army was formed, having Military (Army) and Naval (Navy) wings. The Naval Wing was soon brought back under Royal Navy control, and the Royal Naval Air Service (RNAS) was born - this fought most of WW1. much of the operations being from land bases!! In 1918 the RAF was formed from the RFC and the RNAS. The Naval component for ship-borne operations then became the Fleet Air Arm (part of the RAF). (Other 'Naval' roles, such as land based AS patrol, beca,e and stayed an RAF responsibility). This continued until the late 30s, when once again control of the aeroplanes that flew from the Navy's ships was passed back to the Admiralty. However, the name Fleet Air Arm was retained. POst WW", there were moves to return to the RNAS name (I may be wrong, butit may have briefly been 'official', but I'd need to look that up). Howevere, Fleet Air Arm was the name of choice and ever since the flying component of the Royal Navy has been known as the Fleet Air Arm. As to who controls it these days, well, perhaps Haggis may (or may not!) care to comment!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murdo Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Flt Lt Murdo Macleod was an RAF exchange pilot.He performed the last British fixed wing launch from the last British fixed wing carrier back in 1978(Phantom "007" from the waist cat I believe) Also don't forget "Wavy Navy" types from the RNVR. But basically it's as gengriz has described it.FAA and RN are pretty much one and the same thing. Mark A bit off topic but... I think I met this guy a couple of years ago. If it's the same bloke then he now runs a hotel in Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg B Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Jointery is one thing but you must remember some essentials: 1. Don't trust the Navy with your iPods or navigating anywhere, though their helicopter pilots are the dogs danglies. 2. Unless there is a 5 Star hotel nearby and you get the weekends off don't expect the RAF. However if their movers are involved don't worry, you wont be there for weeks anyway. 3. The RM, even though they have a map of the globe with Gibraltar written underneath it in pretty big letters on their cap badge still invade Spain on a regular basis. Top tip, that big rocky thingy sticking out from the sea, thats where you should be! GPS for them really means Gibraltar, Possibly Spain. 4. Us green types are perfect, well apart from the Monkeys, Chunkies, Wooden tops, drop shorts and Donkey Wallopers. And if you believe that....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Hi Greg. Ruddy Pongo. Robin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_c Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 (edited) 2. Unless there is a 5 Star hotel nearby and you get the weekends off don't expect the RAF. ha! i wish! maybe the fast jet lads but not us SH! bloody pongo! Edited August 30, 2008 by paul_c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Velociweiler Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Service Responsibilities are usually set out as in the old car sticker:- Fly Navy. Sail Army. Walk Sideways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Pulfrew Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 2. Unless there is a 5 Star hotel nearby Nothing wrong with 5 star hotels - any fool can be uncomfortable. Muddy hole in the ground or clean crisp white cotton sheets! Which would you choose. Sadly its been a long time since the RAF (I) saw 5 star hotels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 You have to be very careful about wording of orders when dealing with other services. Take "Secure that building." An RAF officer will go the estate agent and ask about renting it. A Naval officer will put away the classified documents, close the windows, turn out the lights and lock the door. An Army officer will erect barricades and post an armed guard. And a Royal Marines officer will call in an air strike before leading an assault team in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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