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  1. Hello to all, When I bought and began the construction of the Fiat 806 "Grand Prix" 1927 Italeri kit at 1/12 scale, in july 2016, I was very far from imagining to where this would lead me... I am not a specialist of vintage cars (even if I made indisputable progress these last times) and I didn't know this car, but I loved her design, and the very nice Italeri box-art had aroused in me the desire to build that model. Opening the box, and looking at the sprues, I have to say my enthusiasm decreased a bit: the kit was far from the actual quality standards of Italeri's production, except the decal sheet and the photoetched part. The reason? I found it out on the net, where I began to make researchs. This kit was in fact a reissue of an old Protar kit, what Italeri had forgotten to precise on the box, announcing on the contrary "a unique model in terms of technology and accuracy" (sic). The 2nd disconcerting discover was that there were very few documents available on this car, just a few black and white photos, 2 blueprints, both being contradictory, and a few drawings. I had to learn that this race car did not exist yet for a long time, as it had been sent to the foundry by an incomprehensible order of Giovanni Agnelli, the Fiat boss, a few months after her birth, as pity her elder sisters 801 to 805! (despite our researchs on the exact circumstances and precise moment of that order, it is still not very clear, but it was definitely before june 1928, maybe after the dramatic accidental death of P. Bordino april 15th, but maybe before). But, among these disconcerting discover, I made a much more positive one: Britmodeller, and a thread dedicated to the Fiat 806: the Gangshow... I had never up to now taken part to a thread, just reading sometimes, but I was so impressed by what I saw on this one, especially what Little Andi and vontrips could do, through others, that I decided to join the team. It was september 7th, 2016. At this time, I could not imagine how wrong the Italeri kit was, I thought there were only problems with the poor quality of the moulds, and so, I began my build normally, following the steps, trying to improve it of course, but thinking this build would be probably over in december, allowing me to write an article in Tamiya Model Magazine, as I had done for my Chevy Bel Air Convertible 1957 previously. But small and small, it became obvious that, if I wanted to get a quite true to original replica, there would be a lot of corrections to do: the grille was made of thick rods (what the box-art could not let imagine, thanks to a nice Photoshop work...), the steering wheel was very far from the real one and unrefined, and so for the wheels, and so for the tyres (Italeri had provided the Mef tyres, probably because they did not find the Protar's moulds!) etc etc. Of course, I was far from being alone discovering these problems, but small and small, 2 conceptions of model making, though as respectable one as the other one, began to create tensions on the Gangshow thread: some modelers considered that we (mainly Hannes, Roy vd M, CrazyCrank, Sharknose156, vontrips, NickD and me) were in a "purist logic", very "boring", and "hijacking" the initial thread. This led to the creation of a new thread, initiated by Roy: "Fiat 806: research and scratchbuild" and to the closing of the Gangshow to further replies. It was november 11 and 12th, 2016, nearly 1 year ago. It is difficult to tell here the enthousiasm and the incredible profusion of ideas, debates and discovers of the first weeks in the new thread. It was sometimes even too much for me, I could not go on my build, especially since the new discovers questioned it! In the research aspect, Roy was particularly motivated and effective. A book could be written on the amazing saga this thread and my build have become from that moment. Later, we found out, bought and read the beautiful Sebastien Faures book: "Fiat en Grand Prix: 1920-1930" (E.T.A.I editor), that would be fascinating and would bring historical and technical precious informations. More, I took contact with the author, that was very interested by our research and partial scratchbuild project, and who helped us a lot, bringing infos and new docs. Later, Roy would find the moving documentary of the Monza Grand Prix (4/9/1927), the only one to which the 806 took part (Milano G.P) and in that amazing movie, the first frontal view of the car, showing definitely how wrong was the radiator case and the grille on the kit... Later, I took advantage of a travel in Florida to visit the great Naples Rev's institute (go and see their internet site...) and could then take contact with Paul Kierstein, responsible in the research section, who would bring us him too very interesting documents, in particular the blueprints of our Drawing 2, dated, showing this version, with a longer tail, that had inspired Protar, and so Italeri, was in fact an evolution (that would never be born) of our car, and not a previous version, as most of us thought. Later, Roy would discover accidentally, while he had left us to begin working on its Delage project (go and see his thread), the first profile view, pity not in HR, but so important to get the good shapes... Later, I would go to Torino, to the Fiat Centro Storico (by appointment), and would look to the archives, finding very important infos and docs, and discovering their wrong big scale model (however better than the Italeri’s one) and the museum with the Fiat Mefisto, that should be my next build. All these months, I spent my time doing and redoing, cutting here and there, "shrinking the shrimp", as joked CC. A real pioneer work, that Hannes was doing too. Hannes... he has been so important for my build, as CrazyCrank, the other french modeler of the team (see his amazing thread on the Pocher Bugatti T50), as BlackNight, as Harvey, as Sharknose (Sam, hope you'll get back your photos lost due to Photobucket, I look forward to read your Mefisto thread...), as Roy, as Robin Lous, as vontrips (even if the Protar's tyres are a bit too large and too thick imho, they are anyway much much better than the Mef's one!). A dream team! But Hannes... always pushing me to go further in this quest of truth. We had so many debates (sometimes very lively!). So, this build is of course mine, but I have to thank here all people without whom I would clearly never have been able to build what is definitely, to this day, the most accurate and realistic replica of the Fiat 806, this legendary and beautiful vintage race car. I regret deeply that the editor in chief of TMMI did not understand all that and renounced to my article because I had shared on an internet forum my photos, techniques and ideas. But a 7 or 8 pages in a magazine would have been anyway just a little summarize of the 187 pages of our thread (without mentioning the Gangshow...), so I don't see the problem. Pity... If I don't find anyone interested by editing anything on this build (pity, I have many photos and had begun writing the article...), I will just do a personal book, that I will read with pleasure, when I will be too old to practice model making, this fascinating hobby. And to finish, before the photo gallery, I can't forget (I hope I didn't forget anyone...) to mention my master and friend, Juan Manuel Villalba, who has followed all my build from the beginning to the end, regularly encouraging and so nice, and giving me so good hints. Thanks to him, I have improved a lot my photos (he is not only a great modeler - very famous in the aircraft modelers community - but also a pro photographer). I forgot: My model over (in fact, there would be still some corrections later), I have decided to build OOB the kit (thanks again to Roy...) to show the many many differences between the Italeri kit (nice however) and my true to the original replica. This OOB was built in less than 3 weeks, while the PSB (partial scratch build) has needed more about 14 months! I don't say that to discourage people of goodwill, but you have to know in what you put your feet... That said, if I rebuilt this PSB today, it would probably take less than 6 months... I also want to say that: 1) my kit is definitely not perfect, there are some wrong details that I couldn't modify without taking too much risks. And we are still missing photos of the engine compartment and cockpit inside 2) Harvey has begun the challenge, go and see his thread: H's 806... on Britmodeller, of course! and Hannes is going on too, and when I see what he did with the Mef, a real piece of art (he should publish very soon a "ready for inspection" topic too), I imagine the result... Well, sorry to have been so... talkative, there was so much to say. All the best to all and sorry for the ones I forgot to mention, who, at a moment or another, have brought me (us) help, like square, Jnkm13, Propeller etc. Olivier P.S: Thank you anyway to Italeri that gave me the opportunity to build this unique model. Despite the many defects of this kit, it does exist and we have so few vintage cars at this scale... P.S2: And many thanks and all my loving to my dear Pascale, who had to be so patient during all these months. Being the wife of a passionate model maker is not a present! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And now the pics... finally! As you know, OOB means built out of the box, PSB will concern my partial scratchbuilt version... Photoshop was used only to get good photos parameters, but not to cheat (no correction done except to make disappear the left bonnet on the profile view). I begin with the profile view, photo 28 in the thread (Roy's discover, lately and "accidentally", looking for Delage docs!): My partial scratch version without the left bonnet (erased with Photoshop, many thanks to JM. Villalba who did the job): And with the left opened bonnet, in TIFF format (VHR): ((N.B: pity, this is the only photo I could put in TIFF format, great but very heavy, because the other ones are more than 25 Mo, and Image Schack, that I use to export my photos, doesn't accept them. )) Comparison original/ OOB version/ my PSB version: the Italeri kit is too height, giving a massive perception, the tail is too long, and so for the cockpit... and of course, the wheels are wrong in every aspect (tyres, spokes...): ---------------------------------------------------------------- This frontal view (photo 12 in our thread) is a screen capture of the documentary, due to Roy too: comparison with the OOB: it doesn't seems to be the same car... and with my PSB version: the radiator case had to be completely redimensioned, and the grille too. The thick plastic rods of the kit's grille were removed and replaced by 51 thin steel rods (0,4 mm), that I had to bend a bit because the grille is not flat. The front and rear axle were wrong, not long enough, I had to modefy this too. All these modifs have many consequences on the build, in particular decreasing the body in height... ----------------------------------------------------------------- The photos in our thread have been numbered according the moment of their discovery. The photo below, numbered 1, was one of the first photos we got. The profile view above bears the number 28 because it was discovered lately... ---------------------------------------------------------------- As the photo 1 above, the photo below (our photo 2 in the thread) was done when presenting the car, that is not yet painted (and the exhaust are still uncovered) and some rivets are visible on the fairing, that will be totally erased before the race. This photo 2 is high quality, giving many informations on details. The angle of view is slightly different from the photo 1, and the driver is missing. Comparison photo 2/ OOB: Comparison photo 2/ PSB: ----------------------------------------------------------------- Other HQ photo taken the same day, our photo 3, very interesting 3/4 rear view: let's compare it first with the OOB: and now with the PSB: ----------------------------------------------------------------- The same with our photo 4 in the thread). With OOB: and with PSB: ---------------------------------------------------------------- Our photo 9: this photo was very interesting for us, because it was taken the day of the race (after the race in fact) and was HR. It is the only one that shows that there was an asbestos wrapping on the exhausts. Pity, this photo HR is protected by a copyright, I can reproduce here just a LD version (the original was 1,2 Mo, this one is only 369 Ko) but you can however see the wrapping, wet because of the rain: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Our photo 25 in the thread: notice the very low body (the mechanics around the car are however probably not very tall): ------------------------------------------------------------------ Top view: we don't have any top view of the original car OOB and PSB comparison on top view: OOB and PSB in frontal up view: and in rear view: ----------------------------------------------------------------- And now let's focus on details, beginning with wheels: The wheels have been completely respoked, there must be 72 spokes by wheel (0,4 mm steel rods at 1/12) instead of 36 plastic thick ones in the kit. ---------------------------------------------------- Cockpit, windscreen, exhaust, fairing and fuel cap on the OOB: and on the PSB: ----------------------------------------------------- Fuel cap, louvres, exhaust, brake cable, wheels, digits etc. on the OOB: and on the PSB: ----------------------------------------------------- Engine compartment OOB: notice the very thick ignition wiring and connectors provided in the kit, the unrealistic screws on the radiator case and the body, the thick plastic hinge, the thick brake cables (the kit provides a big spring to represent them) etc. and PSB: the hinge has been scratchmade, so for the ignition wiring and connectors. The brake cable is a 0,38 mm braided wire from RB motion. ---------------------------------------------------- Brake cable and tensioners on the original car (photo 2): on the OOB: and on the PSB: ----------------------------------------------------- And finally the Sir Lawrence figure (Minichamps 1/12) from which I made my driver Pietro Bordino. I had decided indeed to represent "Il Diavolo Rosso", the Fiat and tifosi golden child in the 20's. This transformation was another challenge... ---------------------------------------------------- New photos, done on a black cardboard, giving another perception, with a very nice contrast red car/ dark cardboard:
  2. Hello, everyone ... a quick shout out to anyone that was following the original thread to my 806 build, ... well, it's done - well as done as it's ever going to be. There is a myriad of details that could be fettled with, and yes lots of prototypicality issues. But this was only ever an exercise in building the Italeri kit, and in my case using it as a means of illustrating an amusing backstory that I'd concocted. Apologies are perhaps in order because the photo's I include are literally just drive by shots taken to let my head know that it's all done, finished and I can guilt free move on to something else - it's been twenty months in the making and I'm pretty burnt out with it now - so enough with the chit chat ........ here's the pic's ............................................... The pic's aren't the best, are they? - However, if anyone would like to see anything in particular (just noticed there's none of the other side - do'h) ... shout out - I'll see what I can do? It only remains for me to Thank all those that encouraged and supported me through the builds darkest hours - the PB crash etc. So, heartfelt thanks one and all, here's hoping for success in your own individual endeavours ... Cheers!
  3. Introduction This thread was started intending to unite those interested in building the Fiat 806 based on thorough research and photogrammetry. See also the great Fiat 806 Gangshow build album. In the current thread there will be (at least I hope people will post) extensive research on the original car, photographs, drawings, literature and archives. Beside that the thread will feature scratchbuilding progress based on the findings. Perhaps in the future there could be exchanges of resin molded scratch parts, just like Vontrips kindly did with the tyres (for example: body panels / grille?) Index To start off I have gone through all of the Gangshow topic and I indexed all knowhow. Best way to use it: click a link, go back and click the next link etc. Or open the links in a separate browser tab. Each link represents one post only, so it's better to only read that post, come back to the index and click the next link. The index was created having in mind those who are about to work on a certain subject, such as the steering wheel. For the index, see end of this opening post. Visual reference material First a legal disclaimer. All images are used for educational and referential purposes. Copyrights lie with the copyright holders. Centro Storico Fiat is probably the original copyright holder of many of these images. Centro Storico's website can be accessed here and here. It has a Facebook page here. Be sure to have a look at their great collection of photos of classic Fiat and Lancia cars. Centro Storico also has frequent Twitter updates featuring photographs, see here. Drawing 6 was found here. All copyrights of the photos / screenshots 10-19 lie with Cinecitta Luce. My presentation of the low-definition photos on this forum is just for reference and educational purposes, for the purpose of a hobby. I do not have a corporate license for the use of these images. If at any point in time Cinecitta Luce wishes these pictures removed I will remove them upon first request. The pictures are not to be reproduced on another website or another written work. Please, all, respect Cinecitta Luce's copyrights. Their website is to be found here. All rights to Photo 9 lie with Fotogeca Gilardi, see here. There you can inquire about the cost to purchase a license of a full-scale version of Photo 9. Some pictures of the Fiat 806, such as Photo 1, Photo 2, Drawing 2, Drawing 3 and Drawing 6, are larger than shown here. To enlarge, right-click on the picture and choose 'open new tab', then click on the picture on the new tab. Photo 1A Photo 1AA Photo 1AAA Photo 1B Photo 2 Photo 2, amended by Hannes Photo 3 Photo 4A Photo 4B Photo 5 Photo 6A Photo 6B Photo 7A Photo 7B Photo 7C Photo 7D Photo 7E Photo 7F Photo 8A Photo 8B Photo 9 Photo 10 Photo 11 Photo 12 Photo 13 Photo 14 Photo 15 Photo 16 Photo 17 Photo 18 Photo 19 Photo 20 Photo 21 Photo 22 Photo 23A Photo 23B Photo 23C Photo 24 Photo 25 Photo 26 Photo 27 Photo 28A Photo 28B Documentary These are the contents of the documentary (references in this overview), insofar most relevant for the Fiat 806. A full transcription, with correct chronology, is to be found here. 01:01 - Fiat 806 (#15), front view, being cleaned. Grille shape, car width, front wheel camber, steer linkage, tyre width, manual crank opening position, suspension position, metal wind shield are shown. No number '15' visible on radiator or bonnets. No dent (compare photo 9) visible. There is symmetry in bonnet bulges. 03:14 - Fiat 806 (#15) is pushed toward the start line, for the start of heat 2. All numbers '15' have been applied. There is no dent in the radiator housing. Moments after this video was filmed, Photos 4 and 10 were taken. 03:22 - Fiat 806 (#15) is seen from the left, close-up. The 'rear wheel louvres', exhaust pipe-to-body connector, steering wheel, seat (with rain cover?), gas cap, left hand body lining, glass window, mechanical windshield and rear number '15' are seen up close. 05:12 - Close-up of the Fiat 806 (#15). The left bonnet and part of the '5' is seen. There is a rain cover over the glass window. 05:15 - Low side view of the Fiat 806 (#15). This is the lowest view we have of this car to date, which makes it very valuable to assess the height of the wheels in comparison to that of the body. This is final proof that the body was indeed significantly lower than Drawing 1 and the kit would imply. Left to the Fiat, there is the Bugatti 35C (#24) driven by Aymo Maggi. Only one umbrella is up so there can't be too much rain at this point. 05:22 - The start of the final heat. The Fiat 806 is gloriously captured spurting away. Two days ago someone said in this thread 'what I'd give to have seen this care race'... probably this is as close as we're going to get at that. It is great to be able to witness this wonderful day in September 1927. For our research this scene is relevant mainly because Bordino steers his car a bit, so that it is seen from different views - in ONE camera shot. That is very fortunate. 05:41 - At Curva Sud, the Fiat 806 is seen in first position. 07:07 - Fiat 806 is seen up-close, from the right side this time. The glass screen is now very well seen. Also the tyre pattern, for example. The metallic windscreen is seen as well. Drawing 1A Drawing 1B Drawing 2A Drawing 2B Drawing 2C (Next is the straightened, rotated and rescaled version; one of the original versions can be found here and the Gimp file of the upgrade can be found here) Amended Drawing 2 v9. The Gimp file can be downloaded here. Drawing 2D To use this Drawing 2C for scratchbuilding (or comparing) the frame, see here. Drawing 2E This Drawing is only to be used for researching and checking details that are not to be found on Drawing 2A, Drawing 2B or Drawing 2C. I strongly advise against using it for measurement purposes because it consists of several photos of the blueprint 'glued' together. Drawing 3 Drawing 4 Drawing 5 Drawing 6 Drawing 7 Drawing 8 Engine Drawing 1 Engine Drawing 2 Engine Drawing 3 Engine Drawing 4 Engine Drawing 5 Engine Drawing 6 Photogrammetry 1 Photogrammetry 2 Photogrammetry 3-5 (deleted) Photogrammetry 6 Photogrammetry 7 Model 1: Model 2 The hereunder index is updated up to & including: November 10 2016 BODY AND GRILLE - Hood hinges, see also here and here and here and here and here - Replacing the louvres, see also here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here - Grille color, see also here - Body color, see also here CAR GENERAL SHAPE RESEARCH, INCLUDING PHOTOGRAMMETRY - General body shape photogrammetry, see also here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here - Comparing two photos, see also here - Body should be lower (and other changes), see also here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here - Grille changes, see also here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here - Cutaway drawing accuracy, see also here and here[ and here CHASSIS, FRAME AND SUSPENSION - Amending springs, see also here and here and here - Turning dampers, see also here and here GENERAL KNOWLEDGE ON CAR AND TECHNIQUES - Colors, steering wheel, windscreen - Engine, radiator, grille - Color of rails, see also here - Photos of pre-war race cars details, see also here - Article about vintage car paint, wired wheels et cetera - 3D-printing, see also here and here - Upcoming 1:1 Fiat 806 replica? ENGINE - General engine corrections, steering idler arm correction, see also here and here and here - New filler cap - Engine sump, see also here - Casting engine covers, see also here and here - Spark plugs, see also here and here and here and here - Plug leads and wiring, see also here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here - Fill certain gaps?, see also here and here and here and here - Correcting cylinder head ends - Correcting PVC tubes, see also here - Collector tubes?, see also here and here and here and here and here - Correct stand 121D - Valve springs EXHAUST - Exhaust issues - Color of exhaust INTERIOR, EXCEPT STEERING WHEEL - Gear shift - Instrument panel: turning gauge bezels, see also here and here and here STEERING WHEEL - Steering wheel boss replacement, 12 or 16 holes in wheel, see also here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here - New spokes - Transparent part, see also here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here - General steering wheel amendments, see also here Ignition timing lever and brodie knob, see also here and here and here and here and here and here - Steering column, see also here WHEELS AND DRUM BRAKES - Spoke count, see also here and here and here - Respoking and nipples, see also here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here - Spoke color - Drum size photogrammetry - Comparison Protar and Italeri wheels - Color of drum brakes and wheels - Creating a mold - Newly cast tyre, see also here and here - Replacement drums, see also here and here and here and here and here - Adding cooling vents to drums and here
  4. I seem to have been sucked over the spoke event horizon. Spoked wheels have recently been covered in both the Fiat 806 and Mefistofele threads that are currently running. The conversation touched on the potential for computer modelling tools to depict spoked wheels. I opined on how this might be done. I then thought I ought at least to demonstrate the approach rather than pontificate some impractical theoretical method I ought at least try it. Rather than hijack the thread further, I thought I had better create a mini WIP just on this small aspect. It's probably more of a how to really. The goal is to start from either a drawing and generate a representative (but not necessarily completely accurate) model that could be used as a basis for 3-D printing. The lack of precision is due to i) me being a bit slap-dash; and ii) I wanted to have a minimum thickness that stood a chance of being printed. The output will be a file that contains all the components and consolidated models that can be used in a number of combinations and potentially could be used as the basis for any spoked wheel. The only step I don't plan to do is add the embossed detail, I am not particularly skilled at this and I want to get on with other things. This will be relatively short, I hope but I will submit in installments. I will use a free surface modelling tool called Blender. The steps are: model the wheel and hub; model an architypal spoke; generate sets of spokes; merge all the components into a printable object. I will post the completed model at the end for information and should anyone wish to use it or modify it for personal projects. Wheel and hub models. The wheel I want to represent is that for the FIAT Mefistofele. Sources are: many pictures on the web, though few which cover the full circumference. There is also a copy of the line drawing from the kit instructions and of course the wheel in the kit.The wheels have 70 spokes. On the front wheels, there are 6 sets. The outermost is clockwise (hub to rim) with 14 spokes. then anticlock with 14 spokes. Both sets attach to the outer edge of the rim. Mid-rim there are two sets of 7 spokes that attach to the inner face of the hub. Inboard, the last 2 14-spoke rims that connect to the inner hub. So there are 28 spokes connected to the outer edge of the hub and 42 to the inner edge. I chose to model the rim and hub two different ways. The first was drawn using the cross-section for the rear wheel using the drawing from the kit instructions. The result is shown below: To generate the model, the image is loaded into a class of object called an "empty" object. That can then be aligned with the cardinal axes, scalled appropriately. If you are new to Blender the interface is a bit obscure but these are fairly straightforward once you get the hang of it. Having aligned and scaled the picture. I added a circle (renamed it - eventually) and entered edit mode. Generating a shape is then a case of align the diameter with the drawing and successively extruding (E), scaling (S) until the required profile is generated. The wheel is modelled as a single object with 3 separate meshes comprising the tyre, rim and hub. This allows various combinations of the 3 components to be used. Once familiar with the interface this type of object takes about 30mins to 1hour to complete, so fairly quick once set up. Counting the spokes took as much again!
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