robstitt

Congratulations on creating such a wonderful rendition of an RAF Fortress I. One note: an earlier post states that the erroneous 'AM5**' serials applied by Boeing were corrected to AN5**at Burtonwood following the transatlantic delivery flights.. I have a number of aircrew logbooks that record Fortress I training in the US at March Field, Riverside and Boeing Field, Seattle. These indicate that the serials were corrected well before each aircraft was flown to Wright Field for final checking and painting in temporary Dark Olive Drab and Neutral Grey. Pre-painting images taken at Wright Field and post-arrival, pre-Burtonwood shots taken in the UK also confirm that the aircraft were already marked AN5**. Robert Stitt

A heads-up that MMP no longer posts updates to my book Boeing B-17 Fortress in RAF Coastal Command Service As noted earlier in this thread, MMP published a revised second edition in September 2019 and this includes all the original updates. Additions and amendments to the second edition - yes, content continues to trickle in! - can be requested via email at: https://sites.google.com/site/spartanairservices/other-books-boeing-b-17-fortress-in-raf-coastal-command-service Robert M Stitt

Jure’s reference to Deep Sky emerging from beneath the weathered white on the modified Fortress IIA FK185 may have originated with a series of updates I created for the first edition of my book. A still from a film taken at Dorval of a B-17E on delivery to Britain in the spring of 1942 appears to be of 41-2514, alias FK185, painted in Temperate Land with Deep Sky sides and under surfaces, one of two schemes applied to the first 20 or so aircraft delivered. The other scheme was standard USAAC Olive Drab and Neutral Grey. On reflection, I was perhaps a little too emphatic in the updates that it was FK185. But if it is 41-2514 - only the last digit needs confirming - then that would confirm the aircraft in the film is FK185 and the emerging colour on the tail and fuselage sides of the modified cannon-equipped aircraft would be Deep Sky. I’m still working to confirm this. Robert

The Lancaster images were taken by Spartan's chief photographer Joseph Scott at Uplands in the spring of 1956. The Mosquito, CF-HMR, was written off at Pelly Lake strip soon after whIle the Lancaster, CF-IMF, was only used for SHORAN surveys that season. Robert

Adding to Dana's note on the instruction from Group Captain Ryde to Cheyenne that the Dupont under surfaces colour would be 71-001 White, this was never implemented on the remaining Fortress IIAs/B-17Es prior to their delivery to the UK. Instead, the under surfaces on the remaining Fortress IIAs were painted Sky with, as Dana notes, the lower demarcation line (Pattern No. 1), the quoted FK209 being an example. It would appear that while the Temperate Sea upper surfaces requirement was picked up, so too was the reference to Sky for the under surfaces of 'general reconnaissance land planes' on Air Diagram 1161. The May 23, 1942, instruction from the Production Division at Wright Field - kindly provided by Dana - notes that there was an attached marked-up copy of Air Diagram 1161 depicting the painting of these aircraft. This would likely clarify how the Temperate Sea/Sky scheme came about but I believe the drawing has not survived. Robert

Thanks, Ewen. Robert

Hi Ewen and Dana: Thanks for picking up my book. Ewen: Per the book, only early Mk.IIAs/B-17Es were delivered in either OD/NG or Temperate Land/Deep Sky. By the time the Mk.IIs/B-17Fs came along they were being painted Temperate Sea/White over the OD/NG factory finish. Dana: Greetings, and thanks again for your assistance with the camouflage content. Robert

Hello All: The second, revised edition of Boeing B-17 Fortress in RAF Coastal command Service has recently been published by MMP Books and available from a variety of sources online.. Robert Stitt

Have just read the entire thread and thought I would offer feedback on some issues raised. First off, thanks for all the kind words in this and other BM threads about my book – it’s very gratifying to know it is enjoyed and adds to the body of knowledge about the Fortress and Coastal Command. About the photo of 41-9141 and 41-9131, it comes from a series of Kodachrome and B&W images taken by Boeing in April 1942. Safe to say that reproductions, no matter how ‘out there’, have not been colourized. The Temperate Land and Deep Sky applied to 41-9141 was in anticipation of Fortresses being delivered to Bomber Command for the high-level bombing role. In the meantime, the British deemed the B-17 unsuitable for their purposes and assigned any they could get through Lend-Lease to Coastal Command who did not have enough long-range land-based aircraft to protect the vital convoys. At the time of the first deliveries to the UK in late March/early April 1942 there were aircraft available at Seattle in both Olive Drab/Neutral Grey and Temperate Land/Deep Sky, as neatly represented in the photo. Examples in each finish went to both the RAF and the USAAF, including 41-9141 which was never assigned to Britain and which was not one of the 16 B-17Es officially taken back by the USAAF. This apparently random allocation approach was maintained for the first 20 or so deliveries to the UK. Those that were destined for squadron service were promptly painted Temperate Sea/White at Burtonwood. The quoted Boeing drawing refers to Dark Green, Dark Earth and 'Deep Sky Blue', which may refer to the British requirement for their preferred colour, Deep Sky. Confusingly, the noted Dupont colour card shows both as slightly different hues. As noted, the Boeing drawing quotes Fuller paints. As to the colours in the photo, I have a vivid print from Boeing where the 'Deep Sky Blue' to my eye has a slight green tinge. However, when the image is colour-corrected against known colours outside the aircraft outline the blue becomes closer to Deep Sky. Re Fortress IIs, there were only 19 delivered to the Britain for the RAF, FA695 to FA713. FA684 has been quoted here and there but it was one of 20 serials from the range FA675 to FA694 that were applied to B-17Fs that served with the USAAF. Re: It should be pointed out that in mid 1942 U.S. and British officials agreed that future Lease-Lend aircraft would be produced in American camouflage in order to expedite production. Other camouflage variations would be applied by the British, Australian, New Zealand and South African air forces and any factory applied scheme could be modified to meet local requirements… This wasn't followed in the case of UK-bound Fortress IIAs and IIs as there were two further camouflage schemes before the last Fortress II was delivered in the spring of 1943. Although it would have been great, I wasn't able to establish contact with Dana Bell and so he didn’t have the opportunity to contribute to the book update. Can’t speak to discounts, Steve, but thanks for your kind words. This is a good time to say that MMP are terrific to work with and thank goodness they are there to publish these more esoteric subjects. Robert

Hello All, The reference to Dupont in my CC Fortress book update relates only to the inclusion of the colour chart that came to hand and wasn't meant to imply that that Dupont products were applied to RAF-bound Fortresses by Boeing - it was only there to get give a sense of the colours involved. The update is something of a grab-bag of material that came in after publication that I thought would be good to share. For anyone interested, the book is being updated for a second edition with the camouflage section being a significant revision. Robert Stitt

I'll dig through my project papers and see what I can find. Robert

Gordon: I took the position when writing the book that Bowyer's observation of the 'grey and green' upper surfaces of the Fortress Is prior to their delivery to 220 Squadron Coastal Command was the best info I had - I talked with him several times and he was emphatic that they had been at least partially repainted. The photo that came through after publication suggested that only the Dark Earth had been overpainted. Bowyer was of the opinion that the repainting of other bombers going on at the time - including Blenheims as I recall - suggested that the grey would have been Dark Sea Grey rather than Extra Dark Sea Grey. I suggested a Temperate Sea scheme in th book as a possibility but now doubt that (with the exception of AN537 which we know from a photo and observation received a full Temperate Sea and White scheme). Certainly was interesting talking with him - his favorite memories were of streams of Stirlings taking off and the RAF Fortresses making contrails. Robert

Thanks, Graham. Dave: It's at moments like this that I wish I had included endnotes in the book so folks would readily know each source and judge its credibility... and so I could remember the details behind something researched around 10 years ago. Next time! Without going through a chest of papers, my recollection is that the suggestion of Dark Sea Grey came from the writings of and conversations with wartime historian Michael J F Bowyer. As noted on book page 213, Bowyer observed that the grey was applied while the aircraft were still with 90 Squadron, i.e. before the aircraft were assigned to Coastal Command, hence the caption for AN531 on page 23 of the book. And from memory again, I think the application of the grey had something to do with assignment to No. 2 Group. Thanks for posting the photos, Chris. Most are familiar but the second one is intriguing - looks like civilians inspecting the Fortress. Robert

Dave: MMP has just posted the latest Coastal Command Fortress book update to their site, the second since April 2015. http://mmpbooks.biz/assets/Uploads/Amendments-15.11.23.pdf Glad you enjoyed the content - I've found these updates a great way to pass on follow-up information. Hats off to MMP for enthusiastically agreeing to post them. Cheers: Robert.

Etienne, Thrilled that my book inspired this magnificent piece of work. Good for you for going for the complex dorsal ASV array - looks perfect. Robert