expositor

Oops; JF! Poor proofreading....

JW, take my opinion with the proverbial salt grain...the Floquil color is very close, but in its absence, PRU Blue is the closest you can get without mixing your own. I wouldn't use Intermediate Blue, but that's me. But hey, what do I know? Good Luck! Jim

JW, that thread was earlier than the one I participated in, but also included the photo I was referring to. My memory is off as the PPI shroud is in front of the gun mount. Thanks for finding and posting it. I blame my Fire tablet for being unable to fine tune a search here as it couldn't be operator error.... Thanks, Jim

Dave, I tried to find an old thread where Tony O and I, among others, discussed the Swordfish PPI, but my search was futile. As I recall, it is in the observer's area for the gunner to look down into it. I remember finding a cockpit photo in a Swordfish paperback; the one with the color photo of a restored plane on the cover, which I don't have to hand right now....As usual, not much help. Maybe the powers that be here can make it easier to find your own posts.... Jim

As a lover of sea birds in land plumage, yours is especially well done! Thanks for sharing.

Dave, not to be contrary, but I believe the flying surfaces were to be semi-gloss, with the leading edge of the wings matte. Jim

Mike, thanks for posting! Great pics. Jim

We had a similar discussion about six years ago on j-aircraft. If I remember correctly, in the absence of clear photos, a consensus of sorts was that as the torpedo shackles were offset to starboard, three cutouts in that side's door were made so the two doors could be closed to avoid the drag Mitsubishi's earlier G4M bomber experienced.

Not that I can add much, but if I remember correctly, the USMC paint standard as per Elliott, was Olive Drab and Light Grey. Which light grey...? USN would probably be the same, or in the colors others have already mentioned. Many USN and MC planes were allocated from Army contracts and so would have been painted their colors. After 1944(?) when the USAAF no longer required camouflage, those a/c probably were painted in USN colors or aluminum...but since I'm a colors pariah....

Assuming I can still post here amid a call to banish me from the kingdom by that polar bear cat who might lose his lunch of fish or seal or whatever his prey.... JW, not much help, but I recall a series on AN a/c in Mushroom magazine some 20+ years ago that despite what BS (you should alter your moniker...some would say that it should be mine!) stated, there often was an absence of anchors on the wing cockades. The one place it had to appear was on the white stripe of the rudder. Now, I can't find those mag's right now, but they might also be referring only to land-based AdA a/c the Navy was using, making this post just a record of thinking out loud.... Cheers! Jim

I forgot to mention, the sea blue color card in Elliot 3 has no green tint; it's just very dark blue. Not to say you'd be wrong about paint from one manufacturer or another, but the standard was a dark blue.... Cheers

You hope it clarifies? Pointless, as you continue to harp about the later colors which have no bearing on anything I asserted. I only referred to the cards in Elliot of the original 1943 blues, which under a perpendicular light source are too close to call them different colors. Lighting at an angle, especially of the matte and semi blue, makes them look dark bluegrey, just like that Helldiver photo. Your quotes of Dana Bell would be germain if we were discussing the weathering of those colors and their need for reformulation, which we all have read and have no cause to dispute. I only mentioned the blues because it was stated that now reflectance doesn't matter; unless or until it helps one argument or detracts from another...much like "science" these days. Cheers

What does this mean? Are you using the later colors to refute my points on the ANA colors? I have only referred to the colors in Elliot vol.2; you're using color cards in vol.3 which are the later FS colors. I don't think such warrants a response. You also added a quote from Dana Bell whose expertise I greatly respect. But I have reservations when even an expert makes unequivocal statements about these or those colors when numerous manufacturers are producing colors to the same "standard." I remember a past contentious interchange between two experts about USN aircraft colors; my own opinion, for what that's worth, is that they were both right; for some planes, not all. As for the color cards in vol.2, the three colors are too close to see a difference. So I advise you to check the relevant volume; you know apples, oranges, blueberries.... What colors are now known? You mean those colors cited in the camouflage scheme drawings? We knew that already. I agree, the museum lighting is insufficient. But as you and I have discussed in another thread already, Grumman had not yet gotten hold of the requested colors and used the markings colors so as not to impede USN production for planes preassigned to USS Ranger, which used tail color Willow Green, a gloss color as seen on the plane in question. Again, if Grumman didn't have the requisite colors, what colors did they have available? You blokes have taken the fun out of this.... Cheers!

You're grasping. The DuPont paint chart colors, posted elsewhere here, are clearly flat/matte, and certainly not gloss. Again, what gloss colors are they if not those I have mentioned? Hey, I could be all wrong; just tell us which colors they were. Now reflectance doesn't matter? Funny how many here over the years, just to cite one example, have insisted that the three USN sea blue colors were all different. Now some color photos seem to show a difference, that one Helldiver photo comes to mind, but one of our premier experts here, if I remember correctly, and one Major Elliott, stated that the standard for all three colors was to be the same, the only difference being reflectance. The fact that different manufacturers had varying mixes resulting in shade differences doesn't alter that standard, at least until the USN is supposed to have changed those standards after the war with the implementation of the FS system. I'll agree to respectfully disagree; despite my lack of credibility. Cheerio, Jim

Hi Maurice, Impressive resume! I only butted in here because all the color suppositions ignored the fact that those colors uncovered in the FAA Museum 'restoration' were gloss. Since they were gloss, that limits the possible colors they could be. We all have reservations about photo interptetations, but sometimes color photos can be revealing. As for Grumman's records, Elliot mentioned gaps, especially regarding EDSG, and I believe Paul Fontenoy as well, if I remember correctly from maybe an IPMS publication many years ago? But again, the fact that those colors are gloss negates almost everything that has been argued in trying to connect them to any British color. Hmm, Fontenoy....Maurice, something about your moniker I couldn't put my finger on until now. Funny, I don't recall you signing off as Maurice until this thread, but now I see it; the great Marechal de Saxe, Moritz von Sachsen, who defeated 'Stinking Billy' Duke of Cumberland at...Fontenoy in 1745!!! Sad that it took this frustrated historian this long to see that.... Forbear, or hero? Anyway, again, a most impressive resume. I hope you'll consider my inferences in the spirit of friendly discussion as I'm hitting way above my knowledgeable 'weight' as they say. Sincerely, Jim

I have been reluctant to chime in as I have no expertise, but as I have been in a prior exchange on these color questions that has been ignored, I will now. Maurice, a simple question; what gloss colors match or are closest to those on the upper surfaces of that plane? The only camou color on it is the underside blue. The very dark blue on the upper surface, your words, doesn't look anything like Flag blue gloss? Really? Then what gloss color is it if it isn't the blue markings color? Occam's razor might suggest a simple explanation. As for the green, it can't t be 28 as you stated, again as it's a gloss markings color. Yes, Grumman had the correct factory scheme diagrams, but they obviously had not yet rec'd the correct paint. As I have previously mentioned, every US manufacturer had a contract provision with the BPC that US construction would not be held up by paint color requirements despite the fact that at that time they were paying customers, and in the absence of the expected colors they, Grumman, slapped on colors they had for USN Wildcat production. Said colors were the Flag/Insignia Blue, and Willow Green gloss markings colors. As planes pre-assigned for USS Ranger were on the line with the G-36's, the use of the gloss green, and blue, is obvious as they had plenty in the absence of the Du Pont camouflage paints for the first ten or so of those planes built. Why did they not just paint them the light grey they had for what would have been the French planes? One of many questions that remain unanswered. The grey would have have made more sense. Jim

Check "massimotessitori/altervista.org.". Massimo, who posts here, has a great site for soviet warplanes, which includes info on the Pe-8. Scroll down to the " pages" for the aircraft list.

Sorry for late post, but it took a bit to dig out my Smer Il-2 to confirm my hazy memory that it was somewhat larger than my other kits. The tail is in fact larger than the others. With all the touting, I wasn't expecting that much of a difference. Am I the only one, or am I all wet...again? Now, where'd I put that 72 scale rule...?

What about the Zvezda kits?

Hi Erwin, Nicely done; I'm envious of your paintwork! Cheers! Jim

Hi Jerzy, Nice models, this and the Zlin, and really like the camou on this one! And, Happy Easter to you as well!!! Jim

Hey Floyd, You got it right adding both; the radio lead goes from vertical tail to a flange of sorts on the post and straight down to an insulator, while the wires from the tailplane to the sides are the IFF leads. Cheers, Jim

Gents, great pics, and great models! Thanks for posting! Jim

I'll respond in your order, but as this has gone on a bit, the last word will be yours. Willow Green, to remind you a third time, is not flat/matte, it is a gloss marking color not included in any list of agreed colors for the BPC. In any case, it is not that light, and for you to imply that its use resulted from some misinterpretation is maybe, trite. What about the Insignia Blue with which it shares the upper surfaces? Another misinterpreta- tion? It's obvious to most of us that Grumman had yet to receive those DuPont paints and made do as, to repeat, they were entitled to. Supply chain issues, as they call them now, were present in the US as they were in Germany, which was not blessed with the same amount of resources. How many books mention every problem with resource allocations that early in the war? So for me to suppose that such could have resulted in Dornier, like Grumman, using paints that they had on hand because of a shortage they could have had is certainly within the realm of possibilty. We have, again, photographic proof of Grumman using colors other than those some say they "only" used. That hangar photo I mentioned was Grumman's as among the F4Fs was one of those orange-painted amphibians built for Esso/Std Oil of NJ. Should I bother responding to that hyperbolic tirade comparing RAF maintenance procedures to a German civilian manufacturer, to dismiss my mentioning a possibility? Cheers!

You're right again about Junkers, but that doesn't mean that Dornier could not have used use green paints they had. Hitler was concerned only with numbers, and green camouflage of slightly different shade used instead of otherc olors used by all the other manufacturers possibly bottlenecked in a frenzy to rearm would not have been that much of a problem. If Goring didn't care, well he didn't about naval aviation, then it wasn't a big issue. But hey, what do I know? I'm just saying possible shortages result in changes, and 72/73i s not that different from 70/71. But for us here? No! As to Grumman, many continue to make unequivocal statements about the colors they used in producing their planes for the BPC. Grumman used...name the paint...until they didn't. The restored Martlet in the FAA Museum is proof, and is clearly painted in Willow Green. Heck, it's a gloss marking color; how many gloss greens would a USN contractor have stocked? Occam's razor and all that. Those planes were on the line with planes for the USN, and every American manufacturer had provision to not impede construction for their prime customer, the US gov't, so if they ran out of the agreed colors, they would use what they had to get the planes finished. There were pics posted here years ago of a Grumman hanger with USN and RN planes painted in Grey Blue and Olive Drab like those pics of Corsair I's in New England; not the colors many have said were "only" used. There was a disagreement here years ago between two experts about two underside colors on Corsairs; my humble opinion was/is they were both right. But hey, what do I know? Sorry for the digression.