Stefaan

Hi. By 20 SFTS you probably mean 20 EFTS. Do you have a/c and serials for the aircraft he flew there. I may have photos of those a/c Stefaan

Hi. Not always. You have to look at the aircraft. Need a photo.. Sorry.

Hi. The topside of Hepsa Bah: The light colour looks very light, lighter than Midstone, if you look at the usual non'filtered' sky and cloud photos as described above. If 1941, early 1942 they would most likely have used a stand in colour Lewis Berger mixed as it didn't have the chip for Midstone till in about August 1942. South Africa supplied paints to all the units till mid 1842, even the MU's. I have seen notes describing it as Light Earth and Lighter Earth. That explains the light brown. The underside would be the same situation. Lewis Berger only got Sky Blue and Azure blue in mid 1942, so they sent up gallons of Duck Egg Blue (Sky). If you look at the two shots with 'V' one sees a darker colour, which was the Du Pont Sky which had a grey colour. Du Pont also only got the Sky Blue colour a few months after the UK produced it.. So--- if delivered du Pont Sky, and if repainted Lewis Berger Sky.( UK Sky)

Hi Blimpy. The orders I am looking at was for the initial years. At a later stage all the trainers were painted silver, so if Ronnie Belling drew it in silver I would say he is right for that date he painted it. The silver topside and yellow flying surfaces would be right if he says so, but the green would stay like I said. Stefaan

RAF Dark Green. Lewis Berger LB104 for fabric (BS281C 185) and Lewis Berger121 for enamel. (BS381C 203) So if everybody says Humbrol 30 is not accurate then Humbroll 117 probably best. Specs found in all the orders and paint deliveries. Base colour Canary Yellow all over. This was also a specific SAAF colour. There is also a yellow outline around the black part of the serial number on the green band. William, you did the specs on Canary Yellow. Stefaan

Hi Elger. Those photos of the wreckes are from one or two of the Blenheim MK IV that got lost after departing from Fuka. They were fom 15 SAAF and there was only 1 alive by the time they were found.. Described in detail in our 15 Sqdn history book, Aegean Pirates. Stefaan

Hi. On the documents seen these different D.T.D. references used both on fabric covered and metal aircraft, each with there different container numbers. On the Lewis Berger documents they refer to 2D101 specs, that looks like a predecessor of the D.T.D. system. They must have had a similar colour name with number. I have never seen those, and got no response when I asked previously. That would mean that Lewis Berger in the Union and Australia, and any other company that produced paints needed some colour chips they obtained from who ever determined the 2D101 specs. Does anybody have info on this 2D101 reference system?? In my research on my book I also read that Lewis Berger supplied East Africa, sounding like up to Sudan before the war as well This time period from about 1922 till 1939 is really poorly documented. Nothing noted in South African archives.

So if I understand it correct the D.T.D. was the chemical 'formula' that determined on what it was to be applied, and protect. The colours that were developed and got specified under e.g. 'British Standard' (or BS) fell within that 'chemical' specification. The BS381, that partly went to MAP, and later BS381C colours then progressed using different D.T.D specs as new colours were introduced. The D.T.D probably then explained the different eg 33B catalogue numbers.

Thx guys. will go through this gen tomorrow.

Graham, would those specs have differed from the D.T.D 83A specs. I see the specs for the Battles on the blue print is the same as someone produced in 1940.

Hi Graham. Thx, that helps. I don't have that book and have put it on the net if someone has it South Africa, but nobody has one. Just found one, which me be delivered only next year. Thx a mil Stefaan

Hi Everybody. On the charts from the Air Ministry in 1938-1939 the reference to the colour charts are for D.T.D. 308/314. Having no access or not seen such a D.T.D. note I would like to know why the 308 and 314. Is it according to sequence of the specs, or different for another reason like dope vs enamels? Why two numbers on one document. Does anybody have these D.T.D. documents?? Sitting down here in South Africa we do not have access to those files. If I have a definite file series at Kew I may ask them to copy them for me. Thx Stefaan

Hi. Graham. Your Quote. I very much doubt that the SAAF will have cluttered up their limited logistic chain with their own paints, seeing as they were intended to be the same as the Air Ministry ones which would be in plentiful supply. The Union sometimes only got the chips for paint mixes months after issued by the Air Ministry, as did Du Pont and Fuller. Do you know what cellulose colour was "Sky 33B 437 (431)"?? I only have a note from South Africa to Desert HQ 14/8/1942 that we will supply that colour 1500 Gal immediately and 1300 Gal over next 6 months. Many other colours at those large volumes mentioned.. No mention of Azure. Dark or Light Med Blue. Those colours, at that time, will have come from the UK. As mentioned before, the Union was a major supplier for the Desert Campaign for a very long time. The UK did not have any chemicals to use on paints, and relied on the Union so help with supplies. Does anybody have the 33b colour catalogues for 1943 or 1944. I don't find those 33B numbers on my 33b catalogue, only lower numbers. There is only Midstone dope (on fabric)mentioned, no Midstone cellulose to the North. That means that Midstone cellulose (on Metal) was supplied by the UK. In the Union we still had Duck Egg Blue issued and used, but a note stated later that Sky Blue will be issued 'in Leu of Sky'. Be good Stefaan

Hi. Lodestars delivered in camouflage were painted with Fuller paint, and their Sky was light grey in colour. If repainted in the Union till well into 1942 we only had Duck Egg Blue available. Sky Blue only came later. Was not stocked by Lewis Berger. The underside looks most likely to be Duck Egg Blue. We also did not have Midstone on inventory till late 1942, so the light colour may be Light Earth, or like Lewis Berger said in one document 'Lighter Earth'. Top may then be Dark Earth /Light Earth. Stefaan

Hi Mike. It was in a note from Lewis Berger that they recognized only the government order according to the 2D specs, which was 2D 101 and 103 that I saw.