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Let's come back to the build, with a question I am wondering about the frame lenght: I recall the frame was, according to drawing 2 (I go on thinking Drawing 2 is nearly right for the frame lenght), around 7-8 mm to long (I thought 10 to 12, but I have changed my mind) I made a mistake cutting it at the cockpit level, removing the same 7 mm I had cut on the body at the same level. So, the question now, is: where should I cut my frame? the frame can be considered as made of 3 parts: 1) Rear part, nearly horizontal, coming from the rear leaf spring stand rod (10B on the kit) to the curve, at the 8B level (on step 1 of the instruction sheet) 2) Middle part, in which the frame goes up to pass over the front axle (from 8B to 5 mm before the triangle at the front cross engine stand 108 and 109D level, step 4) 3) front part, nearly horizontal, from this last mark, to the front leaf spring rod stand 9B (step 1). I do think, following drawing 2 but also photo 1, that the part to remove on the kit's frame is essentially situated on the middle part. more precisely at the front part of this middle part. I will be careful, and keep the portion removed, just in case. But, after all these surgeries, and as I have to paint again my frame (fiammante rosso!), I must first cut it, to avoid filling, sanding and painting again later, after floor and engine placement.... Before I do that (I become careful...), I will wait your points of view, especially Hannes one! (I suppose he won't agree with any frame decrease ).
Hi Mark, I did mention this at the very end of my second post. I was quite worried to begin with fearing that flexing the fairly rigid plastic would cause paint to crack and maybe windows to pop out. I removed the front arches as part of my inner wing modification which may have helped the attachment a bit. Anyway, you've got it sorted now. I have to thank you again for helping me out with the stripes again. All the decalling is done and the body has been joined to the floor / interior - I was a little nervous about this bearing in mind all the changes I made, particularly the roll cage and addition of bare-metal foil to the window apertures. I cut the side windows and windscreen into separate parts leaving the rear side windows and back window together. These were glued in with a bit to be desired in terms of fit - the front screen could now be centred effectively halving the slight gap that was apparent when clipping the windows in as one piece. I used Gator's Grip to fix and also fill the slight gaps. I've started attaching various bits and pieces. The windows are very clear if not perfect optically - I did worry about seeing the effort I'd put in on the interior but it's ok. Before the door windows were fitted, I 'opened' them which looks quite effective. I took a couple of not very good pics at the decalling stage and things have moved on a bit since. At our club meeting last night, one of our members, Phil Jones, took a few pictures for me so I'll post as soon as I receive them. Nick
About the low profile chassis, Sebastien says in his book, p. 149, speaking about the 806 chassis: " it is a low profile chassis. The rails pass over the front axle and then come down to pass below the rear axle. This configuration was seen from 1922 on the Rolland-Pilain Grand Prix." P.S: Thank you Hannes, very interesting german article, with new details... including through others a very precise creation schedule of the car, that confirms - with still more precisions - what Massimino said in the interview...
Translation of p. 1 of "Fiat Ufficio tecnico" : Title: 504 car with 406 engine. Bridge (deck?) 10/49 Tyres 29 x 5,25 Monza trials from the 21/8 to the 25/8/1927 21/8/1927: the car was reinforced at the front as at the back of the frame, in order to improve the driving stability when cornering. On the car was set the engine n°3 (?) with new cylinders that, in the room test, gave good results as well in term of power than about the thermal balance. From the first laps, we immediately found that the reinforcement of the frame had improved the driving stability in curve. We can see however that, on this circuit, the car has a too short wheelbase, so that she wags the tail during the necessary steering corrections. 47 laps test during the day, very fast, are done, for the development of the different parts, and the best lap time is got by Salamano, in 3'32"3/5. Observations: 1) the fuel pressure valve must be of at least 10 mm, of light (??) and must be set on a connection of the piping and easily registrable. 2) the magnets tend to give some misfirings at the maximum number of laps; and the necessary will be done so that Bosch will check that. The .... Bosch thinks it is necessary to do a modif ... to all magnets. They provide ... with the agreement that the remaining will be modified at Milano or Torino with the brought pieces from Stuttgart about the 25/8. 3) The ... of the crankcase at the central box .... but the engine goes on losing a little oil .... the collars from the lateral distribution box, and this oil ... the servobrake that we have to protect with plates and felts. 4) The deck under the engine on the right side produces an accumulation of hot air that affects the conduction, for which we decide to remove it, and this action still improves the refreshing of the radiator. (ndlr: is it question here of the lower part of the bonnet on right side, 3G part on the kit, for which Hannes was wondering if it was still present on photo 9 or not?) 5) the tyres that are still at test session don't last more than 15 laps at a fast pace; we pray the officials from Pirelli so that we can get the definitive tyres. 6) we can see that the inside of the fuel tank, after a few laps, grow to 47°C, and, to avoid that, we create refreshing louvres on the body (ndlr: the left ones, just openings, behind the cockpit, on photo 4?) 7) A star on the drive pivots of Hartford shock absorbers was broken. 8) the clip of the oil .... was not improved: it would be necessary to make transversal bulheads in the same tank to prevent the oil accumulation during the braking. 9) there are still misfirings of sparkplugs N2 by craking ... 10) The ... of the sparkplugs have a weak spring that must be replaced. 11) the central electrodes of 2 plugs were covered by a coat of carbon. 12) the distilled water in the radiator makes a lot of sediment of a fine mush that flocks together on the cap (transl. not sure...)
What a great project K! Looking really good so far. Definitely one of the nicest body shapes ever for an auto (Imho). A small point, not sure if it matters to you (artistic flair!), but the four speed transmission that came in these cars was either a M20 Muncie or M22 "Rockcrusher" Muncie. These transmissions were/are in aluminum casing and never painted. So, if you haven't bolted it in yet, perhaps an aluminum colour? The bell housing is aluminum too, usually painted Chev orange as you have done. Exception to this would be an after market steel bell housing from Lakewood; these tended to be red or yellow. Steel "scattershields" stopped the pieces of exploding clutch material from coming up through the floorboards and slicing some pieces off of you. When launching at high rpm for a drag race this did happen from time to time. Great subject, great build! Looking forward to seeing more. Robert
Evening all. Ok, the front re-spoke has been done, now getting ready to do the rear as well as putting into practice some valuable lessons learnt from the front. This is a kind of before and after picture using the rear. I know it is not perfect, but for my 1st attempt I am quite chuffed and the difference is massive compared to the moulded original. Tyres need the rubber flash removed, anyone got any suggestions on a good method? Also have the discs drilled and painted too... Waiting on the steel to proper dry. Using AK True Metal, and patience on the drying is vital. Will give them a buff tomorrow then possibly a wash to tone the brightness down a bit, as they look too flat all gold and steel. Also working on the forks now, have opened up the top yoke to take some 3mm brass tube and will show the workings on the bottom triple clamp when I have something worth showing. I was going to scratch build them, but the kit ones look fine and just need some modification. The forks though are a bit pants, hence the brass tube. All in all, progressing nicely. Catch you later Tony
Dear Roy these are very interesting documents ! I´ll read them later , because this will take some time .And I want to finish my today´s translation works first : The rest of this very interesting article will be published tomorrow : Chapter 3 At a late evening on an old military compound near Torino and in presence of Fiat General Director engineer Rossi and other technicans Pietro Bordino was the first who was driving test runs. After only two rounds around that compound the clutch lost one of it´s steel discs and the car had to be repaired in the factory . In June of 1927 the car was driven on a non-public road several times . To prevent curious eyes from looking these runs were made early in the morning and on every crossing a watcher was posted . Because the testings needed a lot of time it was not possible to build more than one car even 3 or 4 engines existed : The chances to win the race on the 4. of September with only a single car in it´s first race were considered as very very low . There were more test runs on the Monza race track on the 12. and 13. and between the 21. and 25. of August : An exact record about these test runs was made by engineer Rossi , mainly written by hand : This record shows- besides the usual difficulties with a new racing car - a mysterious shaking and jumping of the left front wheel which could not get fixed : The engineers tried to strenghten the leaf springs and to stiffen the frame but these efforts were in vain : The engine was powerful , but only had a short lifetime . Therefore an agreement was made with the officials of the Grand Prix : Two different races should be held :The Grand Prix of Italy over 50 Monza - rounds ( or 500 km ) and the Grand Prix of Milano over just 5 rounds ( or 50 km ) Fiat only participated the second race , Delage decided to drive the Grand Prix of Italy : This way both competitors won their race : End of chapter 3 , to be continued tomorrow , there are still a lot of surprising informations ! Hannes
Just noticed this thread , looks great so far love the weathering . I drove one , or it drove me, nearly 50 yrs ago the last time I remember was with a scraper on the back pushing pig slurry into a pit -- diorama? ours if memory was dusty grey , rusty red with greenish stains! will follow what is left with interest and hopefully look into this as well. best wishes Andy
A very very little progress that evening: I've drilled the seven 0.8 mm holes below the left frame rail (2 drill bilts broken, the third one will not cut metal anymore) And drilled the eight 1 mm holes on the left protection plate Next steps: - Same job on the right protection plate and frame rail - Prime the protection plates, paint them flat Aluminium - Paint satin black the crossmember - Fix with 18 bolts all that stuff on the frame
Amazing information... if we can rebuild as close a model as possible, we have to imagine that Eng. Massimino, Eng. Zerbi and Me Cavalli would be very emotional... in their graves RIP. in memory of their great ingenuosity and creativity. Imagine Massimino finding the reason for the cursed vibrations, running to his boss's office and Me Cavalli telling him "too late". Great efforts Olivier and Hannes !! Thank you a mil. !
Chapter 2 After the right number ( 504 ) was known it was easy to find the plans in old files which were situated between the plans for the passenger coaches 503 and 505 . But who changed the name ? The name 806 was established at a later time because the precessors names were the 804 and 805 . At the time of the Monza race this car was named " Fiat 1500 " or " Fiat 1500 12 cylinders " The car had an very unusual 12 cylinders 4 strokes engine with two vertical 6 cylindres blocks. Both rows had a common crankshaft case made out of aluminium but each row had their own crankshaft . The V - situated valves were operated by 3 ohc ´s. The center camshaft operated the inlet valves the other two the outlet valves . This engine was developed by the Zerbi team . Cavalli was responsible for the chassis and the rest of the car . The minimal weight for formula 1,5 litres cars of that time was 700 kg , the minimal width of the body was 800 mm , because no second passenger had to be on board anymore in 1927 . The exactly dated documents of Massimino shows the development of the car : At the 4. of July 1925 the general design was established ( with a left-hand output drive , so the driver´s position could be very low ) In September Massimino constructed the suspension of the rear axis . In December he calculated the clutch adviced by Cavalli : In January 1926 he was busy with designing the body and numerous detais . The chassis was an usual construction of that time . Under Zerbi´s control 2 versions of an engine were developed in the beginning : " tipo 451 " ,also called 151 and " tipo 406 ". Even if " tpo 451 " was never used in a car it was a very interesting construction : It was a 2 stroke engine with a compressor . At this time it was believed a 2 stoke engine with a compressor could develop more power compared with a 4 stroke engine . But problems with overheating and a lot of other difficulties made an end for this construction and only " tipo 406 " was developed further : The car and it´s engine were completed in May 1927. The car´s weight was about 50 kg more as the desired 690 kg . The engine´s weight including clutch , magnetos and compressor was about 200 kg . With 170 kg of liquids and the driver this new construction `s weight was approximately 980 kg at the beginning of the race : End of chapter 2 will be continued... Hannes
Yes, Larchiefeng, you're right ! I can also consider replacing the actual top plate (60 cm depth) by a deeper one (80 cm) which will be permanently set... The room for my legs isn't at all a problem, I just achieved a 2 hours working legts apart without any uncomfort
Wow guys! I'm "blown away" by all these fantastic discoveries. Things [new findings] had started to slow down and I really didn't think we were going to obtain any more, but it is gift that just keeps on giving! A HUGE THANK YOU to everybody involved in this fascinating project! Cheers, H
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